I think there are two factors in Balefire:
1 - Strength (how far back in time the Pattern is burnt out)
2 - Area (how much the balefire affects - this includes the range of the BF)
This is actually what I am arguing for. That a channeler can choose how wide the balefire stream is, and how strong it is. So Rand could choose a wide but weak stream to burn a large group back only a second. Or a single focused intense stream to burn just a single target back many hours.
But I am also suggesting that these two are not linked. So if he had enough power, he could also create a wide stream that burned everyone back an hour. Or he could create a focused stream that burned you back a second. It would be up to him.
The fact that entire cities were burned in the AoL in one go seems to support this. The AoLers who did not have unlimited power used a wide but weak stream. That still would have destroyed the city effectively, but without burning everyone back for more than just a few seconds maybe?
I see no reason to believe that Rand moderated his use of the CK. After all, he is taking out one of the top Forsaken, and before this, he spreads the knowledge of Balefire to his Asha'man (Narishma), suggesting that while he knows it is dangerous, he doesn't really realise why or how much it is.
Uhh?
At this point in the series, Rand has almost completely merged with LTT. And LTT was there when Balefire was invented. It is very likely that rather than not realising the danger, Rand actually knows better than anyone else alive (other than the forsaken) how balefire works, what it does and how much the pattern can take.
Read the scene where Cadsuane tries to order him to stop and he draws upon LTT to smack her down as the ignorant child that she is.
Given that, and given that he knows that the timespan he burned Rahvin back was sufficient since Moridin told him that Rahvin was gone. And given that he has not had his breakdown yet and does not want to destroy the pattern, why would he burn Graendal back any more than he did Rahvin? I see no reason why he would.
I think what we saw was a wide balefire stream that had been attuned so that while it touched everyone, those that it touched were not burned back all that long. No more than Rahvin and probably less. He might even have used as little as what Moiraine used when he took out Bel'al.
Yes, it did damage, but nowhere near enough to seriously endanger the pattern. And I doubt Rand had to draw upon all the power the CK had to offer to do this. I think he could have even used Callandor to accomplish this had he wished. Heck, a circle of 13 might have done the trick.
Now, Brandon has commented on how far back in time balefire can take things - we know that at most, it couldn't have taken Graendal back more than a week or so (Brandon said a day or two IIRC), but we know that the balefire was strong enough to remove the Compulsion placed on Ramshalan (probably 20-60 minutes earlier). Note that this minimum is roughly equal to or greater than the amount of time that Rand restored in TFoH with Rahvin.
With Rahvin, Rand used at most 1 metre squared of balefire (likely less, but we'll be generous). We also know that Natrin's Barrow is a large estate, so assuming that Rand's target area was 1km squared is not unreasonable.
1km squared = 1 million metres. This strongly suggests that he is definitely drawing deeply on the Choedan Kal.
I agree that he could not have created a stream wide enough to encompass the entire palace unaided. But I am arguing that he did not come close to drawing fully on the CK.
Even just 1% of the max power of CK would probably have been enough to take out the palace. That 1% would still be many many times more than Rands unaided strength though. But 1% is not drawing deeply.
Why would Rand, who did not want to destroy the pattern yet, use 100% of what the CK has to offer if he KNEW from LTT and what happened to Rahvin that 1% would be enough. And actually that 1% would be better/safer. No reason I can think of that he would have.
2 - We never hear how far back the population was taken. For all we know, the balefire streams were broad but far weaker than Rand's, only taking them back seconds or perhaps even less.
But if it is possible to create a stream that is broad and wide, but weak at the same time. Why would Rand have create a stream that was wide AND strong. He would know it was not required and would only cause unnecessary damage to the pattern. Damage that he, at this point in the book, did not want to cause yet.
Rand the psycho?
- 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM
1737 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions.
- 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM
1148 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions.
- 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM
968 Views
Wait!
- 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM
1071 Views
Re: Wait!
- 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM
977 Views
Re: Wait!
- 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM
965 Views
Re: Wait!
- 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM
926 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM
1029 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM
930 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM
1028 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM
948 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM
1004 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM
947 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM
1001 Views
Of course, I agree with you, esp since I just put forth the idea you support earlier in the thread.
- 11/01/2010 04:58:26 PM
1436 Views
Rand crossed a line
- 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM
1035 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently?
- 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM
1012 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM*
- 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM
496 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes.
- 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM
944 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM*
- 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM
510 Views
LOL ... super-death!
- 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM
884 Views
Yes it was.
- 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM
1014 Views
Re: Yes it was.
- 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM
962 Views
Re: Yes it was.
- 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM
959 Views
Re: Yes it was.
- 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM
964 Views
let me ask the question in a different way
- 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM
965 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way
- 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM
943 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts
- 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM
1013 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts
- 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM
899 Views
yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
- 07/01/2010 12:34:34 AM
906 Views
Re: yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
- 07/01/2010 01:13:40 AM
872 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take.
- 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM
1014 Views
Sigh. What mass murder?
- 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM
846 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM
920 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM
943 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM
951 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM
880 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM
968 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM
913 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM
849 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS!
- 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM
1013 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM
966 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol:
- 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM
969 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again
- 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM
1039 Views
Meh
- 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM
879 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
- 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM
876 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
- 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM
964 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
- 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM
939 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good...
- 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM
935 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
- 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM
863 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
- 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM
899 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
- 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM
950 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
- 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM
882 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
- 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM
1033 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions
- 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
1004 Views
- 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
1004 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument.
- 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM
939 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people
- 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM
965 Views
I concede
- 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM
867 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning.
- 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM
1002 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow,
- 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM
955 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow,
- 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM
887 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention
- 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM
956 Views
You are treating Graendal's "pets" as though they were enemy combatants
- 07/01/2010 03:40:03 PM
1014 Views
Like I give a damn what a group of professional killers would do.
- 08/01/2010 11:39:11 PM
874 Views
Graendal captured these people as part of the Shadows offensive, Operation Chaos Rules
- 09/01/2010 12:00:40 AM
1176 Views
Well, I still liked your first argument. It's a freaking war. The argument ...
- 07/01/2010 07:08:53 PM
926 Views
