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Re: let me ask the question in a different way Datakim Send a noteboard - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM
If Balefire doesn't destroy the soul, why then can't the DO lay claim to it? He is outside of space/time as he is not part of the Pattern so the burning a few seconds/minutes away shouldn't be a problem for him... Seems to me that the soul is simply burned from the Pattern too, and thus no longer accessible to ST.


Actually RJ said that time is indeed an issue.

It is like this. Lets say after you die, your soul leaves on a journey to join the pattern or whatever. This journey takes 5 minutes. Once your soul reaches the destination, it is too late for the DO to get you.

However, the DO is ready, so when you die and your soul leaves your body he is there. He catches your soul before it reaches its destination. It takes him only 2 minutes no notice that you are dead and your soul is on its journey. Plenty of time.

He then implants your soul into a new body. Because you never joined with the pattern (or wherever souls go), you never went through the whole recycling process and still have your mind and memories.

Now lets say I balefire you back 10 minutes. The DO is just hanging around when suddenly, he notices that you are dead (you died 10 minutes ago). He tries to reach for your soul but its too late. Since you died 10 minute ago, your soul already reached the pattern 5 minutes ago and is out of the reach of the DO. He curses the fact that even he cannot step outside of time.

(The times are totally made up btw, this is just a silly example)

Now LTT was not just your average shmuck. He was the greatest channeler alive, highly educated, extremely intelligent. The leader of the whole war. During TGS, LTT and Rand are nearly one. We see that time and again when Rand thinks LTT thoughts. I see no reason why LTT/Rand could not puzzle out that it is indeed TIME that messes the DO up. As it does.


Oh, and I did manage to find the RJ quote which probably explains it better. Here it is:


Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1702 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 1108 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 1105 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1131 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 1030 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 928 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 1044 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 953 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 941 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 883 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 895 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 848 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 883 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 872 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 1002 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 905 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 979 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 909 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 964 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 900 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 960 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 870 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 992 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 1000 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 940 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 1029 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 836 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 979 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 477 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 908 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 922 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 873 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 493 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 844 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 487 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 864 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 832 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 979 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 902 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 929 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 929 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 919 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 915 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 961 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 868 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 982 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 817 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 922 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 883 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 909 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 919 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 858 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 939 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 877 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 811 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 978 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 925 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 924 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 875 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 908 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 819 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 837 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 1001 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 838 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 841 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 929 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 895 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 907 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 966 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 831 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 857 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 921 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 854 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 998 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 957 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 900 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 930 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 836 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 964 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 903 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 920 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 842 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 917 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 1093 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1222 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 814 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 865 Views

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