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I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention Cannoli Send a noteboard - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM
And that is how the slippery slope begins. These types of things tend to start with that line of reasoning, with the line of reasoning escalating. If I was a more religious person, I could argue that in the real world, we aren't talking about souls but physical bodies, and as terrible as mass murder is their souls would still be saved by a God somewhere.
No serious or significant religion makes that judgment, nor does any serious orthodox believer hold that belief. The only religious justifications for mass killing would be if the targets in question had so greviously offended God that they had it coming, in which case, He is probably not going to exert Himself to save them, or else they are endangering the faith or something by their actions. The commonly heard sayings "Kill 'em all & let God sort them out" or "God will know His own" originated as exhortations in military (i.e. justifiable-killing) situations, intended to overcome the religiously-inspired squeamishness of their subordinates towards killing. You just sound like a horse's ass and reveal your own prejudices when you attribute such inept reasoning to religious believers.

What Rand did was demolish those souls with little understanding if those would ever come back - judging from the behavior of him and his companions they all assumed that those souls were gone forever, and I think it's unfortunate that so many of the arguments here bring in RJ's statement to justify it.
Who cares, one way or another? Even if they ARE destroyed for all time (I don't believe that, but don't care about that anyway), it makes no difference. The state or fate of one's soul is strictly a private matter, and irrelevant to the justification of their homicide.

If President Bush had decided to nuke Afghanistan and Iraq saying that the souls would be reborn in another few generations, we'd call him insane, yet in the bounds of this fictional world there are too many people IMO willing to concede that this is rational. It was not a rational act. It was the act of the madman and power mad tyrant that Rand stood on the threshhold of becoming.
Good point. But just because they are idiots does not make them wrong about Rand being justified.

We actually saw this slipper slope escalate in the books: After balefiring the hundreds of people at Graendals' palace, Rand later threatens to rain fire using the Choedan Kal on the Borderlander army which consisted of thousands of people, and later even then he considers to wipe out the headquarters of the Seanchan incursion with balefire - that is a population that dwarfed what was in Graendal's place.
Thousands of people in uniform, with weapons, under agreement to unquestioningly follow the orders of their rulers who have demonstrated zero good faith, and about whom a strong cause can be made for their presumed hostility. SOLDIERS ARE LEGITIMATE TARGETS. Period. This was not a trade delegation, or convention of merchants, it was an army. They refused to explain their ends to a person they believed to have some connection with Rand, and their words regarding their intentions were all indicative of their displeasure at him. They are not his people, and he owes them nothing. Their demand that he put himself entirely in their power, even as they cozy up to a city that has behaved in an extremely hostile manner towards him in the past, whose current government replaced their former leader for her decision to release him from captivity. Rand had NO reason to think them friendly or benevolent, and they were an ARMY in threatening distance of his own followers and forces. Any other way of dealing with them would have entailed greater risks to people he IS responsible for. He was justified in what he planned to do to the Borderlanders AND to the Seanchan. If they don't like it, they shouldn't have come. The "innocent" civilians have had plenty of time to move away (as for example, the Anan family did, in their moral outrage over the Seanchan institutions), but have chosen the Seanchan. They are all culpable.

The problem with rationalizing these types of things is that you lose your humanity by denying that other people have a valid right to existence.
And you moralizers lose your credibility by denying that other people have a valid right to protect their own existence. In other words, no one's right to exist takes precedence over your own. You have the right to kill anyone who endangers your existance, as does Rand.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1763 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 1173 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 1178 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1187 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 1105 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 1005 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 1097 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 1007 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 997 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 955 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 968 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 921 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 955 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 938 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 1060 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 959 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 1064 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 976 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 1034 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 968 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 1028 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 923 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 1057 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 1068 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 1019 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 1105 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 899 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 1048 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 510 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 965 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 980 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 936 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 521 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 906 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 520 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 935 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 896 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 1045 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 997 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 995 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 990 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 1002 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 971 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 1043 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 936 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 1042 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 880 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 986 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 948 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 980 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 982 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 912 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 994 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 953 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 878 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 1042 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 994 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 1004 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 943 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 973 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 884 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 899 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 1070 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 903 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 905 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 996 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 973 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 966 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 1037 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 890 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 932 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 988 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 915 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 1072 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 1034 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 970 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 998 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 904 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 1038 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 975 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 980 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 916 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 992 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 1166 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1300 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 879 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 915 Views

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