Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention
		Lord Haart Send a noteboard - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM
		
	Thousands of people in uniform, with weapons, under agreement to unquestioningly follow the orders of their rulers who have demonstrated zero good faith, and about whom a strong cause can be made for their presumed hostility.  SOLDIERS ARE LEGITIMATE TARGETS. Period. This was not a trade delegation, or convention of merchants, it was an army.  They refused to explain their ends to a person they believed to have some connection with Rand, and their words regarding their intentions were all indicative of their displeasure at him.  They are not his people, and he owes them nothing. Their demand that he put himself entirely in their power, even as they cozy up to a city that has behaved in an extremely hostile manner towards him in the past, whose current government replaced their former leader for her decision to release him from captivity.  Rand had NO reason to think them friendly or benevolent, and they were an ARMY in threatening distance of his own followers and forces.  Any other way of dealing with them would have entailed greater risks to people he IS responsible for.  He was justified in what he planned to do to the Borderlanders AND to the Seanchan.  If they don't like it, they shouldn't have come.  The "innocent" civilians have had plenty of time to move away (as for example, the Anan family did, in their moral outrage over the Seanchan institutions), but have chosen the Seanchan.  They are all culpable. 
Even Angelmar? Even Hurin? On a purely clinical basis, I agree that the army has shown little in the way of good faith towards Rand - but that's only considering half the equation.
The Borderlanders have been protecting Randland for a Millennia. Finally, the Dragon is reborn and they expect some support, but until the end of KoD, there is none. Instead, they hear about more trouble to the south - the False Dragon Taim who had killed thousands of Saldeans has been made the HEAD of a legion of insane male channellers, all by order of the Dragon, the man they are relying on. The White Tower is split and offers no support, the other countries are reeling from the Seanchan and Aiel invasions, so isn't it logical for the Borderlanders to assume that the real threat isn't in Trolloc hordes (especially if 50 channelers can kill 100,000 Trollocs a la KoD), but rather in the dissension and division to the south.
If Rand was completely sane, he would immediately see this. But his astrologically-proportioned ego and paranoia are blinding him.
So instead of at least asking Hurin to bring him more information, he considers destroying an entire city and army camp. Not everyone in that camp is even a soldier - many are cooks, cleaners, wives (who we are told accompany their husbands in the case of Saldea), children, who have all been led their by trusted monarchs who have never done wrong by them.
For Rand to jump instantly to feeling distrust, anger and fear towards the Borderlanders is more than just disconcerting.
			Rand the psycho?
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM
	        1701 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
			I cannot follow your assumptions.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM
	        1108 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: I cannot follow your assumptions.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM
	        928 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Wait!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM
	        1044 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: Wait!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM
	        952 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: Wait!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM
	        941 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: Wait!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM
	        882 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
	    
			I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM
	        1001 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM
	        904 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM
	        978 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM
	        908 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM
	        963 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM
	        899 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM
	        960 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Of course, I agree with you, esp since I just put forth the idea you support earlier in the thread.
	    
	         - 11/01/2010 04:58:26 PM
	        1385 Views
	        
	    
	
	    
			Rand crossed a line
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM
	        999 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
		
	    
			Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently?
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM
	        979 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM*
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM
	        476 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			But not in this turning of the Wheel.  So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM
	        908 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
			No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM*
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM
	        492 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			LOL ... super-death!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM
	        844 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
	    
			Yes it was.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM
	        979 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: Yes it was.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM
	        902 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: Yes it was.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM
	        928 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: Yes it was.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM
	        929 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			let me ask the question in a different way
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM
	        919 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: let me ask the question in a different way
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM
	        914 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			actually that quote supports my thoughts
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM
	        960 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM
	        867 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:34:34 AM
	        863 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 01:13:40 AM
	        829 Views
	        
	    
	
	    
			Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM
	        982 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Sigh. What mass murder?
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM
	        816 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
			In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM
	        883 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM
	        908 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM
	        919 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM
	        857 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM
	        938 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM
	        876 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM
	        810 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS!
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM
	        977 Views
	        
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM
	        925 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol:
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM
	        923 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM
	        1000 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Meh
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM
	        838 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM
	        840 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM
	        928 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM
	        894 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good...
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM
	        906 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM
	        830 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM
	        857 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM
	        921 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM
	        854 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM
	        998 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions  - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
	        956 Views
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
	        956 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	     - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
	        956 Views
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
	        956 Views
	        
	
		
	    
			Nice way to avoid the argument.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM
	        899 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			I'm just done talking in circles.  You seem to think that because people
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM
	        929 Views
	        
	    
	
	    
			I concede
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM
	        835 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM
	        964 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Morals are subjective anyhow,
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM
	        920 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: Morals are subjective anyhow,
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM
	        842 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention
	    
	         - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM
	        917 Views
	        
	
		
		
	
	    		
			Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention
		
	         - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM
	        1093 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
			You are treating Graendal's "pets" as though they were enemy combatants
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 03:40:03 PM
	        981 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Like I give a damn what a group of professional killers would do.
	    
	         - 08/01/2010 11:39:11 PM
	        839 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Graendal captured these people as part of the Shadows offensive,  Operation Chaos Rules
	    
	         - 09/01/2010 12:00:40 AM
	        1143 Views
	        
	    
	
	    
			Well, I still liked your first argument. It's a freaking war. The argument ...
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 07:08:53 PM
	        885 Views
	        
	    
	
	    
 
  
  
  
  
  
 