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well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
The arguments for her death aren't convincing. They all seem to rely on the magnitude of the balefire stream as evidence that she could not have escaped it and the vanishing of her Compulsion as evidence that she was erased from existence. Neither of these present air-tight support for this conclusion.


That may be, though I think it's crystal clear that she's dead, and I can't understand why people would think otherwise, other than the wish/hope that maybe this Forsaken isn't totally over-rated.
Do you have any argument for her being alive that doesn't start from the position of "I don't want her to be dead, so let's look for loopholes in how she could have gotten out of it?"
Another question I have is there any evidence, any at all, after Rand believes that he killed Graendal, that she is alive?


Who the Allied powers scorned to look for after the end of WWII because they were convinced he was dead ... then he turned up in Argentina 25 years later. Not that this is any kind of evidence, but I find it interesting that she's killed off in such a way that we can question it. Much like Sammael who's death was questioned until RJ finally told us outright that he was "toast".

I'm on the fence with her death. BSand left the door open IMO so there will be theories until we either see it live in ToM or BSand tells us she's toast.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 3160 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1901 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1706 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1817 Views
You also ignored... randfandom - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1768 Views
and of course, the obvious theme Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1599 Views
Bah! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1775 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS Etzel - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1681 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ... amirebram - 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM 3170 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1909 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1754 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Underwood - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1678 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1458 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? beetnemesis - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1520 Views
that's kind of my whole point darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1421 Views
Uh, not actually at all really Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1759 Views
*shudders* Yondaime - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1593 Views
*shrugs* darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1628 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1541 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1584 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? Rurouni_Kenshin - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1492 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1612 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1649 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? Rurouni_Kenshin - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1523 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1645 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1396 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1598 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 1430 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM* Gher - 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM 1029 Views
Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1586 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1617 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1479 Views
Re: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1599 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1623 Views
Me, Too. The Name With No Man - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1582 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1693 Views
I believe she's dead Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1522 Views
Re: I believe she's dead Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1569 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 1437 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM* Shannow - 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM 832 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1689 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! Underwood - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1461 Views
Stop passing judgments... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1624 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1511 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1519 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1544 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1410 Views
Not really Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1545 Views
Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1602 Views
Re: Not really Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1510 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1485 Views
*NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 799 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1568 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1460 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1632 Views
read the whole quote darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 1251 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 1400 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1431 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1579 Views
I don't see any flaws. Skeeve the Great - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1667 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 1386 Views
Re: But... Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1574 Views
That is what I thought ... Yondaime - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1471 Views
That still doesn't make sense. fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1661 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1687 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1515 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! Yondaime - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1477 Views
Nonsense. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 1379 Views
Dude, read what I said please... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1564 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1555 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1401 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot Yondaime - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1494 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 1346 Views
We don't know that, exactly Yondaime - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 1404 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1476 Views
Seriously? Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1510 Views
Maybe... Etzel - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1426 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 946 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 906 Views
Ok, in more detail: Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1570 Views
I'm tired of making this point... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 1328 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... Syraelle - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1514 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 1393 Views
But that means she's dead Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1494 Views
Re: But that means she's dead Heiko - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1585 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 1366 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. Syraelle - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1439 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1677 Views
Indeed... Etzel - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1666 Views
Re: Indeed... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1491 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1470 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Underwood - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1447 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 1229 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1539 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1611 Views
That's not fair Yondaime - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1459 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 1401 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM* Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM 842 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM 976 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 1404 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1528 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1608 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM 1596 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 914 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1557 Views
Not even comparable. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 1323 Views
Re: Not even comparable. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1453 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 1414 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1475 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1448 Views
And, just to double post: Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 1224 Views
Re: And, just to double post: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1531 Views
Nice answer. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1497 Views
Re: Nice answer. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1462 Views
Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1590 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1455 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1498 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 1372 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1515 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1489 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. Etzel - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1516 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1574 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... Etzel - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1548 Views
I disagree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1870 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM* Etzel - 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM 760 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1449 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1466 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1522 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1481 Views
I don't see a flaw rAndy aL - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1568 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw Underwood - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1511 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 1497 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. TheUltimateReality - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1509 Views
Spot on. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 905 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans DomA - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1484 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 878 Views
Compulsion is limited Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1474 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1625 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited DomA - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 1377 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. taura-tierno - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1551 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. Libby - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1560 Views
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