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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious Send a noteboard - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
The arguments for her death aren't convincing. They all seem to rely on the magnitude of the balefire stream as evidence that she could not have escaped it and the vanishing of her Compulsion as evidence that she was erased from existence. Neither of these present air-tight support for this conclusion.


Reversal of Compulsion is pretty airtight. The Compulsion disappeared at that exact moment. From what we know of channeling, the only possibility was that Graendal was balefired. The only possibility to escape this was that Graendal was not the one who compelled him - but she already told Sammael she would not teach Compulsion to anyone.
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 3081 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1814 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1629 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1722 Views
You also ignored... randfandom - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1685 Views
and of course, the obvious theme Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1531 Views
Bah! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1687 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS Etzel - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1605 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ... amirebram - 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM 3092 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1834 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1662 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Underwood - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1608 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1384 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? beetnemesis - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1439 Views
that's kind of my whole point darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1346 Views
Uh, not actually at all really Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1677 Views
*shudders* Yondaime - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1514 Views
*shrugs* darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1556 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1467 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1511 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? Rurouni_Kenshin - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1420 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1548 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1560 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? Rurouni_Kenshin - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1453 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1569 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1330 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1528 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 1350 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM* Gher - 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM 989 Views
Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1515 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1545 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1409 Views
Re: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1523 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1538 Views
Me, Too. The Name With No Man - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1518 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1614 Views
I believe she's dead Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1447 Views
Re: I believe she's dead Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1503 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 1365 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM* Shannow - 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM 791 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1608 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! Underwood - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1377 Views
Stop passing judgments... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1562 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1441 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1423 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1462 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1340 Views
Not really Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1467 Views
Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1532 Views
Re: Not really Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1435 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1412 Views
*NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 750 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1486 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1383 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1544 Views
read the whole quote darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 1170 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 1325 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1358 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1498 Views
I don't see any flaws. Skeeve the Great - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1589 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 1314 Views
Re: But... Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1485 Views
That is what I thought ... Yondaime - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1381 Views
That still doesn't make sense. fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1578 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1592 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1430 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! Yondaime - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1386 Views
Nonsense. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 1297 Views
Dude, read what I said please... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1495 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1473 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1318 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot Yondaime - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1398 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 1248 Views
We don't know that, exactly Yondaime - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 1308 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1387 Views
Seriously? Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1431 Views
Maybe... Etzel - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1354 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 907 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 869 Views
Ok, in more detail: Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1496 Views
I'm tired of making this point... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 1255 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... Syraelle - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1410 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 1325 Views
But that means she's dead Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1414 Views
Re: But that means she's dead Heiko - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1504 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 1287 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. Syraelle - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1362 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1590 Views
Indeed... Etzel - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1582 Views
Re: Indeed... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1409 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1396 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Underwood - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1369 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 1161 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1449 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1524 Views
That's not fair Yondaime - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1369 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 1322 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM* Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM 799 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM 927 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 1324 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1441 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1533 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM 1520 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 870 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1486 Views
Not even comparable. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 1242 Views
Re: Not even comparable. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1378 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 1338 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1386 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1369 Views
And, just to double post: Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 1143 Views
Re: And, just to double post: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1457 Views
Nice answer. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1429 Views
Re: Nice answer. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1386 Views
Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1520 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1381 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1424 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 1281 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1436 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1392 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. Etzel - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1427 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1508 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... Etzel - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1468 Views
I disagree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1793 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM* Etzel - 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM 717 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1369 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1390 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1438 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1390 Views
I don't see a flaw rAndy aL - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1477 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw Underwood - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1439 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 1413 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. TheUltimateReality - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1427 Views
Spot on. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 866 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans DomA - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1408 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 839 Views
Compulsion is limited Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1370 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1534 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited DomA - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 1296 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. taura-tierno - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1405 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. Libby - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1482 Views
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