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Bah! fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM
You should have realized that the Forsaken make mistakes all the time, because they are flawed and arrogant idiots, who consider themselvess godlike. This leads to their deaths, and therefore they won't win in the end. Graendal was even outsmarted by Sammael, and there are countless other examples, where the Forsaken do rather stupid things, at least for the omniscient reader.

This wasn't oversight. This wasn't arrogance. This was plain lack of logic of a very basic kind.

Its like laying the exact same trail over the previously erased trail, supposedly to prevent people from detecting you. Sheer idiocy of the sort none of the Forsaken have ever displayed.
I would bet everything I have, that RJ rather lets Rand look clever and Graendal stupid, than Rand looking stupid and Graendal clever. A twist like: "Haha, Graendal actually wasn't in the palace anymore, Rand still has to deal with her somehow", seems completely redundant, especially that late in the game.

This assumes RJ wrote this sequence. If Graendal is indeed dead, I'm going to have a hard time believing RJ came up with this shitty way to have it happen.
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2855 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1591 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1399 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1489 Views
You also ignored... randfandom - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1485 Views
and of course, the obvious theme Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1312 Views
Bah! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1459 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS Etzel - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1411 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ... amirebram - 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM 2885 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1657 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1441 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Underwood - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1383 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1184 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? beetnemesis - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1209 Views
that's kind of my whole point darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1144 Views
Uh, not actually at all really Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1435 Views
*shudders* Yondaime - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1317 Views
*shrugs* darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1346 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1253 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1322 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? Rurouni_Kenshin - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1179 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1346 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1355 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? Rurouni_Kenshin - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1274 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1373 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1146 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1341 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 1126 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM* Gher - 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM 900 Views
Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1326 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1323 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1198 Views
Re: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1316 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1341 Views
Me, Too. The Name With No Man - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1313 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1402 Views
I believe she's dead Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1257 Views
Re: I believe she's dead Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1295 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 1156 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM* Shannow - 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM 693 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1421 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! Underwood - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1167 Views
Stop passing judgments... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1362 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1238 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1221 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1254 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1142 Views
Not really Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1250 Views
Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1322 Views
Re: Not really Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1244 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1204 Views
*NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 651 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1297 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1186 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1339 Views
read the whole quote darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 985 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 1120 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1183 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1314 Views
I don't see any flaws. Skeeve the Great - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1392 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 1126 Views
Re: But... Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1292 Views
That is what I thought ... Yondaime - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1171 Views
That still doesn't make sense. fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1368 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1374 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1223 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! Yondaime - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1177 Views
Nonsense. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 1101 Views
Dude, read what I said please... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1293 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1261 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1148 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot Yondaime - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1208 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 1044 Views
We don't know that, exactly Yondaime - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 1094 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1186 Views
Seriously? Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1224 Views
Maybe... Etzel - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1154 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 808 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 757 Views
Ok, in more detail: Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1284 Views
I'm tired of making this point... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 1044 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... Syraelle - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1202 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 1117 Views
But that means she's dead Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1167 Views
Re: But that means she's dead Heiko - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1268 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 1092 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. Syraelle - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1161 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1365 Views
Indeed... Etzel - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1357 Views
Re: Indeed... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1189 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1191 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Underwood - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1172 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 977 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1209 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1300 Views
That's not fair Yondaime - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1148 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 1111 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM* Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM 705 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM 830 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 1117 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1233 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1337 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM 1307 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 774 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1288 Views
Not even comparable. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 1051 Views
Re: Not even comparable. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1169 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 1130 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1163 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1174 Views
And, just to double post: Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 939 Views
Re: And, just to double post: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1255 Views
Nice answer. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1260 Views
Re: Nice answer. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1184 Views
Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1302 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1198 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1214 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 1060 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1241 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1178 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. Etzel - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1231 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1288 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... Etzel - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1241 Views
I disagree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1599 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM* Etzel - 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM 628 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1166 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1174 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1217 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1195 Views
I don't see a flaw rAndy aL - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1270 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw Underwood - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1224 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 1205 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. TheUltimateReality - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1223 Views
Spot on. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 768 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans DomA - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1216 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 742 Views
Compulsion is limited Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1171 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1319 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited DomA - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 1097 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. taura-tierno - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1186 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. Libby - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1265 Views
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