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Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM

I'm not certain about her death - I'm merely saying that it's very unlikely that she's alive. When the effects of balefire are seen it is a very strong indicator that the origin has been destroyed. Nothing is set in stone, but I'm pointing out that actually saying she's alive has no real evidence to back it up. I even disagree that thematically it is illogical. She's been a key Forsaken since TFOH, if she dies several books later it makes sense. Rand arrived in Arad Doman with Graendal in mind from the very beginning. To have him destroy her at the end of the book after a lot of soulsearching is logical.

I said in the very beginning that this wasn't about whether Graendal was alive. Its about the chain of events leading to her exposure, and that is full of holes.

If you had said you believe she was dead and that the story did have holes, I'd have agreed with you and left it at that.

Instead, you ignored the logical fallacies in the story and chose to accuse me of wanting Graendal alive! WTF?
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2897 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1627 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1460 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1531 Views
You also ignored... randfandom - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1514 Views
and of course, the obvious theme Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1362 Views
Bah! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1504 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS Etzel - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1440 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ... amirebram - 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM 2925 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1686 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1483 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Underwood - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1416 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1216 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? beetnemesis - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1251 Views
that's kind of my whole point darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1178 Views
Uh, not actually at all really Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1481 Views
*shudders* Yondaime - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1343 Views
*shrugs* darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1402 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1300 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1353 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? Rurouni_Kenshin - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1243 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1383 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1393 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? Rurouni_Kenshin - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1304 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1398 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1181 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1371 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 1167 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM* Gher - 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM 916 Views
Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1369 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1369 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1233 Views
Re: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1358 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1378 Views
Me, Too. The Name With No Man - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1342 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1439 Views
I believe she's dead Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1291 Views
Re: I believe she's dead Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1332 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 1191 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM* Shannow - 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM 717 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1449 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! Underwood - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1198 Views
Stop passing judgments... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1405 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1280 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1266 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1291 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1171 Views
Not really Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1276 Views
Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1359 Views
Re: Not really Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1271 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1242 Views
*NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 677 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1332 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1228 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1366 Views
read the whole quote darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 1019 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 1162 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1219 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1342 Views
I don't see any flaws. Skeeve the Great - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1428 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 1162 Views
Re: But... Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1327 Views
That is what I thought ... Yondaime - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1216 Views
That still doesn't make sense. fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1409 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1412 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1251 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! Yondaime - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1227 Views
Nonsense. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 1140 Views
Dude, read what I said please... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1327 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1300 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1180 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot Yondaime - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1239 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 1080 Views
We don't know that, exactly Yondaime - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 1124 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1207 Views
Seriously? Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1257 Views
Maybe... Etzel - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1186 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 824 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 777 Views
Ok, in more detail: Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1326 Views
I'm tired of making this point... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 1075 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... Syraelle - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1232 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 1165 Views
But that means she's dead Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1216 Views
Re: But that means she's dead Heiko - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1310 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 1130 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. Syraelle - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1193 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1412 Views
Indeed... Etzel - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1394 Views
Re: Indeed... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1227 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1232 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Underwood - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1209 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 1011 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1254 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1332 Views
That's not fair Yondaime - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1197 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 1136 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM* Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM 718 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM 846 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 1154 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1273 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1373 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM 1342 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 797 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1317 Views
Not even comparable. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 1078 Views
Re: Not even comparable. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1210 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 1171 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1217 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1224 Views
And, just to double post: Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 971 Views
Re: And, just to double post: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1301 Views
Nice answer. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1282 Views
Re: Nice answer. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1221 Views
Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1349 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1232 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1252 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 1108 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1267 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1213 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. Etzel - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1261 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1332 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... Etzel - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1270 Views
I disagree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1629 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM* Etzel - 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM 643 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1198 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1202 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1248 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1221 Views
I don't see a flaw rAndy aL - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1298 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw Underwood - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1272 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 1244 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. TheUltimateReality - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1263 Views
Spot on. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 786 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans DomA - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1253 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 759 Views
Compulsion is limited Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1200 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1353 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited DomA - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 1131 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. taura-tierno - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1232 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. Libby - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1295 Views
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