Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
Lord Haart Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
Saying "Well, you can't prove your case" does not make a person right. As with all science, the burden of proof lies upon the person putting a new theory forward.
As I stated above, lack of a direct quote stating that "Graendal is toast" does not mean that she isn't. As with my last post, Kerb could just have easily been a lead planted by Moridin as a lead planted by Graendal; in fact, Moridin has means and motive, while Graendal was clearly unprepared for the attack. The only explanations for her survival rely on suppositions which have no evidence in the books. Whereas explanations for Kerb's compulsion and behaviour are a dime a dozen.
A few quick possibilities off the top of my head:
1 - Graendal DID intend to use him as a trap/lead to Natrin's Barrow, but did not realise that Rand would just BF her in the face (even Ramshalan's POV wouldn't have told her that, or she would have just left). And if she really wanted to cause him pain, she would have just left before he Balefired the palace, so Rand would have seen that he killed hundreds of innocents for no reason. It makes more sense that she forgets that he plays mind games too, because she's made that mistake about Sammael and Moridin already.
2 - Moridin used one of his mindtrapped FS to plant Compulsion leading to Natrin's Barrow in Kerb's mind. Moridin has far more means and motives for the events that occurred than Graendal.
3 - Graendal planted him there as a low-visibility tool to kill off the high-profile Domanis to cover her tracks.
4 - Graendal wanted Millisair dead so it appeared to the other powermongers in Arad Doman that Rand was a brutal king who would kill them too, thereby distancing them from him (her direct orders from Moridin).
5 - Kerb had been planted there ages ago, and Graendal had simply lost track of him or forgotten to tell him to stop killing people.
As I stated above, lack of a direct quote stating that "Graendal is toast" does not mean that she isn't. As with my last post, Kerb could just have easily been a lead planted by Moridin as a lead planted by Graendal; in fact, Moridin has means and motive, while Graendal was clearly unprepared for the attack. The only explanations for her survival rely on suppositions which have no evidence in the books. Whereas explanations for Kerb's compulsion and behaviour are a dime a dozen.
A few quick possibilities off the top of my head:
1 - Graendal DID intend to use him as a trap/lead to Natrin's Barrow, but did not realise that Rand would just BF her in the face (even Ramshalan's POV wouldn't have told her that, or she would have just left). And if she really wanted to cause him pain, she would have just left before he Balefired the palace, so Rand would have seen that he killed hundreds of innocents for no reason. It makes more sense that she forgets that he plays mind games too, because she's made that mistake about Sammael and Moridin already.
2 - Moridin used one of his mindtrapped FS to plant Compulsion leading to Natrin's Barrow in Kerb's mind. Moridin has far more means and motives for the events that occurred than Graendal.
3 - Graendal planted him there as a low-visibility tool to kill off the high-profile Domanis to cover her tracks.
4 - Graendal wanted Millisair dead so it appeared to the other powermongers in Arad Doman that Rand was a brutal king who would kill them too, thereby distancing them from him (her direct orders from Moridin).
5 - Kerb had been planted there ages ago, and Graendal had simply lost track of him or forgotten to tell him to stop killing people.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
2891 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene
- 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
1626 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
- 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
1453 Views
After reading 12 WoT books...
- 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
1527 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
- 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
2923 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
1476 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
1412 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
- 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
1211 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
- 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
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that's kind of my whole point
- 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
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None of those "easy explanations" could work
- 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
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my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
- 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
1349 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
- 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
1239 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible?
- 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
1395 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
1177 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
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Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
915 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
1362 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
- 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
1434 Views
I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
1285 Views
Re: I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
1329 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
- 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
715 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
1443 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
1195 Views
Stop passing judgments...
- 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
1402 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
- 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
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I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
1263 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
1286 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread...
- 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
1168 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
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Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
1362 Views
read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
1015 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
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the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
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Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
1337 Views
I don't see any flaws.
- 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
1423 Views
But...
- 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
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Re: But...
- 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
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That still doesn't make sense.
- 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
1404 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
1407 Views
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
1407 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
- 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
1247 Views
Nonsense.
- 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
1136 Views
Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
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Re: Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
1296 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
- 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
1176 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
- 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
1234 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
822 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
774 Views
Ok, in more detail:
- 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
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Thoughts
- 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
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Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
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Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
1188 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
- 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
1404 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
1229 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
1008 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
1249 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
1325 Views
That's not fair
- 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
1193 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
716 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
844 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
- 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
1148 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
- 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
1272 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
1367 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
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Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
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Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
- 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
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Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
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Re: Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
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Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
- 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
1168 Views
And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
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Re: And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
1297 Views
Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
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Re: Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
1217 Views
Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
1247 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
1104 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
1263 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts.
- 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
1208 Views
Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
1258 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
1327 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
- 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
1266 Views
I disagree.
- 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
1625 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
641 Views
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
641 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
- 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
1193 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
1197 Views
I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
1297 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
1263 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
- 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
1242 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
- 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
1249 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
- 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
758 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
1227 Views

*NM*