Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
Lord Haart Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
Saying "Well, you can't prove your case" does not make a person right. As with all science, the burden of proof lies upon the person putting a new theory forward.
As I stated above, lack of a direct quote stating that "Graendal is toast" does not mean that she isn't. As with my last post, Kerb could just have easily been a lead planted by Moridin as a lead planted by Graendal; in fact, Moridin has means and motive, while Graendal was clearly unprepared for the attack. The only explanations for her survival rely on suppositions which have no evidence in the books. Whereas explanations for Kerb's compulsion and behaviour are a dime a dozen.
A few quick possibilities off the top of my head:
1 - Graendal DID intend to use him as a trap/lead to Natrin's Barrow, but did not realise that Rand would just BF her in the face (even Ramshalan's POV wouldn't have told her that, or she would have just left). And if she really wanted to cause him pain, she would have just left before he Balefired the palace, so Rand would have seen that he killed hundreds of innocents for no reason. It makes more sense that she forgets that he plays mind games too, because she's made that mistake about Sammael and Moridin already.
2 - Moridin used one of his mindtrapped FS to plant Compulsion leading to Natrin's Barrow in Kerb's mind. Moridin has far more means and motives for the events that occurred than Graendal.
3 - Graendal planted him there as a low-visibility tool to kill off the high-profile Domanis to cover her tracks.
4 - Graendal wanted Millisair dead so it appeared to the other powermongers in Arad Doman that Rand was a brutal king who would kill them too, thereby distancing them from him (her direct orders from Moridin).
5 - Kerb had been planted there ages ago, and Graendal had simply lost track of him or forgotten to tell him to stop killing people.
As I stated above, lack of a direct quote stating that "Graendal is toast" does not mean that she isn't. As with my last post, Kerb could just have easily been a lead planted by Moridin as a lead planted by Graendal; in fact, Moridin has means and motive, while Graendal was clearly unprepared for the attack. The only explanations for her survival rely on suppositions which have no evidence in the books. Whereas explanations for Kerb's compulsion and behaviour are a dime a dozen.
A few quick possibilities off the top of my head:
1 - Graendal DID intend to use him as a trap/lead to Natrin's Barrow, but did not realise that Rand would just BF her in the face (even Ramshalan's POV wouldn't have told her that, or she would have just left). And if she really wanted to cause him pain, she would have just left before he Balefired the palace, so Rand would have seen that he killed hundreds of innocents for no reason. It makes more sense that she forgets that he plays mind games too, because she's made that mistake about Sammael and Moridin already.
2 - Moridin used one of his mindtrapped FS to plant Compulsion leading to Natrin's Barrow in Kerb's mind. Moridin has far more means and motives for the events that occurred than Graendal.
3 - Graendal planted him there as a low-visibility tool to kill off the high-profile Domanis to cover her tracks.
4 - Graendal wanted Millisair dead so it appeared to the other powermongers in Arad Doman that Rand was a brutal king who would kill them too, thereby distancing them from him (her direct orders from Moridin).
5 - Kerb had been planted there ages ago, and Graendal had simply lost track of him or forgotten to tell him to stop killing people.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
2958 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene
- 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
1716 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
- 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
1532 Views
After reading 12 WoT books...
- 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
1589 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
- 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
2982 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
1544 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
1482 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
- 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
1283 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
- 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
1318 Views
that's kind of my whole point
- 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
1256 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work
- 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
1371 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
- 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
1423 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
- 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
1314 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible?
- 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
1453 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
1467 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
1244 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
1424 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
1430 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
1252 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
939 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
1424 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
- 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
1443 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
1503 Views
I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
1358 Views
Re: I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
1398 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
- 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
738 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
1515 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
1270 Views
Stop passing judgments...
- 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
1467 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
- 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
1352 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
1331 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
1363 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread...
- 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
1234 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
1291 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
1446 Views
read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
1075 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
1223 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
1281 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
1398 Views
I don't see any flaws.
- 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
1498 Views
But...
- 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
1235 Views
Re: But...
- 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
1388 Views
That still doesn't make sense.
- 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
1481 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
1483 Views
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
1483 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
- 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
1312 Views
Nonsense.
- 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
1194 Views
Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
1404 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
1367 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
- 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
1241 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
- 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
1296 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
850 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
809 Views
Ok, in more detail:
- 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
1406 Views
Thoughts
- 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
1228 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
1191 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
1261 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
- 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
1496 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
1305 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
1065 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
1338 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
1416 Views
That's not fair
- 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
1265 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
1214 Views
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
1214 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
749 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
876 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
- 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
1225 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
- 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
1343 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
1443 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
1415 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
823 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
- 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
1382 Views
Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
1146 Views
Re: Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
1282 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
- 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
1238 Views
And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
1036 Views
Re: And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
1366 Views
Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
1342 Views
Re: Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
1284 Views
Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
1417 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
1288 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
1312 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
1170 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
1344 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts.
- 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
1287 Views
Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
1329 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
1406 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
- 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
1338 Views
I disagree.
- 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
1707 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
666 Views
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
666 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
- 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
1267 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
1290 Views
I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
1365 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
1345 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
- 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
1320 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
- 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
1314 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
- 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
786 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
1300 Views

*NM*