I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
DomA Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
You believe Graendal was making these efforts to prevent Rand from finding her.
I don't think it's what she was doing at all. I don't think she had fears he could trace her agents back to her hiding place. I think she was totally confident in her Compulsion. Even Semirhage wasn't pleased to be asked to remove a Compulsion net. Graendal was not foolish to assume Rand had no one who could do it succesfully. Assuming otherwise would mean being shy/overcautious and by this lack of confidence deprive herself of much of her toolbox.
It didn't matter that Kerb knew her hiding place. He wasn't supposed to be able to reveal it. It's a big strike of sheer luck that the man hated Graendal so deeply that a part of his mind was able to spit this information out before he died, because Rand mentionned he could stop her if he knew where she was.
Graendal didn't fear that Rand found out some of her agents like Kerb - anyone who can delve could figure out she's compelled this or that person.
Graendal was under orders to frustrate Rand and increase his despair.
She let him catch a Councilor. He thinks he can track down the others and have them elect a new King, but she gets a few assassinated. Not all of them - he would have abandonned this solution immediately and think of something else. No, she killed just a few so he expanded the efforts to find them and it's in the end fruitless, more and more frustrating for him, more and more a waste of time and effort. Wherever he turned, Graendal seemed everywhere and more and more he would have gotten paranoid, wondering if there was a point in attempting anything, since anyone could be one of her pawns... Before long, he would have started wondering if he could actually trust Ituralde and his men. Had he delved some of them, including Ituralde, he would no longer have trusted these men...
She let him catch Milisair and get useless clues about the King, then she made Milisair vanish. Before long Rand would have tried to locate her, and it would have lead to a dead end: she's been assassinated (only to convince Rand she could have revealed something, but he lost her before she could). Then there was Kerb, but even if he tracked him down as Milisair's assassin, this would have lead nowhere, or on yet another false trail. Rand would have lost his time.
And the "big glitch" of Graendal's death aside (a course of events she could not foresee for all sort of reasons, including that Rand suddenly changed and did something that days ago would have been unthinkable to him and out of character), her plans worked, and in the typical Graendal way it was all extremely economical as far as the level of active efforts from her was concerned). Rand did get totally frustrated with the Domani situation, gave up and left. A success, if not for the little bug that thanks to Semirhage Rand suddenly started playing the game like the Forsaken themselves, with none of the usual restraints of Lightsiders, and he used a tactic even the Shadow abandonned during the WOP as too dangerous... The last thing Graendal would have expected is LTT to make massive use of balefire, with the Pattern already weakened.
I don't think it's what she was doing at all. I don't think she had fears he could trace her agents back to her hiding place. I think she was totally confident in her Compulsion. Even Semirhage wasn't pleased to be asked to remove a Compulsion net. Graendal was not foolish to assume Rand had no one who could do it succesfully. Assuming otherwise would mean being shy/overcautious and by this lack of confidence deprive herself of much of her toolbox.
It didn't matter that Kerb knew her hiding place. He wasn't supposed to be able to reveal it. It's a big strike of sheer luck that the man hated Graendal so deeply that a part of his mind was able to spit this information out before he died, because Rand mentionned he could stop her if he knew where she was.
Graendal didn't fear that Rand found out some of her agents like Kerb - anyone who can delve could figure out she's compelled this or that person.
Graendal was under orders to frustrate Rand and increase his despair.
She let him catch a Councilor. He thinks he can track down the others and have them elect a new King, but she gets a few assassinated. Not all of them - he would have abandonned this solution immediately and think of something else. No, she killed just a few so he expanded the efforts to find them and it's in the end fruitless, more and more frustrating for him, more and more a waste of time and effort. Wherever he turned, Graendal seemed everywhere and more and more he would have gotten paranoid, wondering if there was a point in attempting anything, since anyone could be one of her pawns... Before long, he would have started wondering if he could actually trust Ituralde and his men. Had he delved some of them, including Ituralde, he would no longer have trusted these men...
She let him catch Milisair and get useless clues about the King, then she made Milisair vanish. Before long Rand would have tried to locate her, and it would have lead to a dead end: she's been assassinated (only to convince Rand she could have revealed something, but he lost her before she could). Then there was Kerb, but even if he tracked him down as Milisair's assassin, this would have lead nowhere, or on yet another false trail. Rand would have lost his time.
And the "big glitch" of Graendal's death aside (a course of events she could not foresee for all sort of reasons, including that Rand suddenly changed and did something that days ago would have been unthinkable to him and out of character), her plans worked, and in the typical Graendal way it was all extremely economical as far as the level of active efforts from her was concerned). Rand did get totally frustrated with the Domani situation, gave up and left. A success, if not for the little bug that thanks to Semirhage Rand suddenly started playing the game like the Forsaken themselves, with none of the usual restraints of Lightsiders, and he used a tactic even the Shadow abandonned during the WOP as too dangerous... The last thing Graendal would have expected is LTT to make massive use of balefire, with the Pattern already weakened.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
3160 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene
- 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
1901 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
- 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
1706 Views
After reading 12 WoT books...
- 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
1816 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
- 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
3170 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
1752 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
1677 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
- 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
1456 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
- 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
1520 Views
that's kind of my whole point
- 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
1421 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work
- 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
1540 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
- 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
1583 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
- 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
1491 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible?
- 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
1611 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
1645 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
1395 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
1586 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
1597 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
1429 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
1029 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
1586 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
- 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
1622 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
1692 Views
I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
1521 Views
Re: I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
1569 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
- 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
832 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
1689 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
1461 Views
Stop passing judgments...
- 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
1624 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
- 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
1510 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
1518 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
1543 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread...
- 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
1409 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
1459 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
1632 Views
read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
1251 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
1399 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
1431 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
1579 Views
I don't see any flaws.
- 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
1667 Views
But...
- 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
1386 Views
Re: But...
- 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
1574 Views
That still doesn't make sense.
- 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
1661 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
1686 Views
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
1686 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
- 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
1514 Views
Nonsense.
- 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
1379 Views
Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
1563 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
1554 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
- 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
1401 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
- 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
1494 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
946 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
906 Views
Ok, in more detail:
- 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
1569 Views
Thoughts
- 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
1393 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
1365 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
1439 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
- 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
1677 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
1470 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
1228 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
1538 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
1609 Views
That's not fair
- 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
1457 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
1400 Views
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
1400 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
842 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
976 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
- 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
1404 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
- 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
1528 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
1608 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
1596 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
914 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
- 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
1557 Views
Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
1323 Views
Re: Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
1453 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
- 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
1414 Views
And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
1224 Views
Re: And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
1531 Views
Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
1496 Views
Re: Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
1462 Views
Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
1590 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
1454 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
1498 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
1372 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
1514 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts.
- 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
1489 Views
Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
1516 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
1574 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
- 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
1548 Views
I disagree.
- 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
1870 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
760 Views
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
760 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
- 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
1449 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
1466 Views
I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
1567 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
1510 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
- 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
1496 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
- 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
1484 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
- 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
878 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
1551 Views

*NM*