I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
DomA Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
You believe Graendal was making these efforts to prevent Rand from finding her.
I don't think it's what she was doing at all. I don't think she had fears he could trace her agents back to her hiding place. I think she was totally confident in her Compulsion. Even Semirhage wasn't pleased to be asked to remove a Compulsion net. Graendal was not foolish to assume Rand had no one who could do it succesfully. Assuming otherwise would mean being shy/overcautious and by this lack of confidence deprive herself of much of her toolbox.
It didn't matter that Kerb knew her hiding place. He wasn't supposed to be able to reveal it. It's a big strike of sheer luck that the man hated Graendal so deeply that a part of his mind was able to spit this information out before he died, because Rand mentionned he could stop her if he knew where she was.
Graendal didn't fear that Rand found out some of her agents like Kerb - anyone who can delve could figure out she's compelled this or that person.
Graendal was under orders to frustrate Rand and increase his despair.
She let him catch a Councilor. He thinks he can track down the others and have them elect a new King, but she gets a few assassinated. Not all of them - he would have abandonned this solution immediately and think of something else. No, she killed just a few so he expanded the efforts to find them and it's in the end fruitless, more and more frustrating for him, more and more a waste of time and effort. Wherever he turned, Graendal seemed everywhere and more and more he would have gotten paranoid, wondering if there was a point in attempting anything, since anyone could be one of her pawns... Before long, he would have started wondering if he could actually trust Ituralde and his men. Had he delved some of them, including Ituralde, he would no longer have trusted these men...
She let him catch Milisair and get useless clues about the King, then she made Milisair vanish. Before long Rand would have tried to locate her, and it would have lead to a dead end: she's been assassinated (only to convince Rand she could have revealed something, but he lost her before she could). Then there was Kerb, but even if he tracked him down as Milisair's assassin, this would have lead nowhere, or on yet another false trail. Rand would have lost his time.
And the "big glitch" of Graendal's death aside (a course of events she could not foresee for all sort of reasons, including that Rand suddenly changed and did something that days ago would have been unthinkable to him and out of character), her plans worked, and in the typical Graendal way it was all extremely economical as far as the level of active efforts from her was concerned). Rand did get totally frustrated with the Domani situation, gave up and left. A success, if not for the little bug that thanks to Semirhage Rand suddenly started playing the game like the Forsaken themselves, with none of the usual restraints of Lightsiders, and he used a tactic even the Shadow abandonned during the WOP as too dangerous... The last thing Graendal would have expected is LTT to make massive use of balefire, with the Pattern already weakened.
I don't think it's what she was doing at all. I don't think she had fears he could trace her agents back to her hiding place. I think she was totally confident in her Compulsion. Even Semirhage wasn't pleased to be asked to remove a Compulsion net. Graendal was not foolish to assume Rand had no one who could do it succesfully. Assuming otherwise would mean being shy/overcautious and by this lack of confidence deprive herself of much of her toolbox.
It didn't matter that Kerb knew her hiding place. He wasn't supposed to be able to reveal it. It's a big strike of sheer luck that the man hated Graendal so deeply that a part of his mind was able to spit this information out before he died, because Rand mentionned he could stop her if he knew where she was.
Graendal didn't fear that Rand found out some of her agents like Kerb - anyone who can delve could figure out she's compelled this or that person.
Graendal was under orders to frustrate Rand and increase his despair.
She let him catch a Councilor. He thinks he can track down the others and have them elect a new King, but she gets a few assassinated. Not all of them - he would have abandonned this solution immediately and think of something else. No, she killed just a few so he expanded the efforts to find them and it's in the end fruitless, more and more frustrating for him, more and more a waste of time and effort. Wherever he turned, Graendal seemed everywhere and more and more he would have gotten paranoid, wondering if there was a point in attempting anything, since anyone could be one of her pawns... Before long, he would have started wondering if he could actually trust Ituralde and his men. Had he delved some of them, including Ituralde, he would no longer have trusted these men...
She let him catch Milisair and get useless clues about the King, then she made Milisair vanish. Before long Rand would have tried to locate her, and it would have lead to a dead end: she's been assassinated (only to convince Rand she could have revealed something, but he lost her before she could). Then there was Kerb, but even if he tracked him down as Milisair's assassin, this would have lead nowhere, or on yet another false trail. Rand would have lost his time.
And the "big glitch" of Graendal's death aside (a course of events she could not foresee for all sort of reasons, including that Rand suddenly changed and did something that days ago would have been unthinkable to him and out of character), her plans worked, and in the typical Graendal way it was all extremely economical as far as the level of active efforts from her was concerned). Rand did get totally frustrated with the Domani situation, gave up and left. A success, if not for the little bug that thanks to Semirhage Rand suddenly started playing the game like the Forsaken themselves, with none of the usual restraints of Lightsiders, and he used a tactic even the Shadow abandonned during the WOP as too dangerous... The last thing Graendal would have expected is LTT to make massive use of balefire, with the Pattern already weakened.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
2897 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene
- 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
1627 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
- 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
1460 Views
After reading 12 WoT books...
- 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
1530 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
- 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
2925 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
1483 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
1416 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
- 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
1216 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
- 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
1251 Views
that's kind of my whole point
- 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
1178 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work
- 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
1298 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
- 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
1352 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
- 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
1243 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible?
- 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
1383 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
1396 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
1181 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
1368 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
1370 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
1166 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
916 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
1368 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
- 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
1378 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
1439 Views
I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
1289 Views
Re: I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
1332 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
- 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
717 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
1449 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
1198 Views
Stop passing judgments...
- 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
1405 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
- 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
1279 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
1266 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
1291 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread...
- 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
1169 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
1228 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
1366 Views
read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
1017 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
1162 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
1217 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
1342 Views
I don't see any flaws.
- 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
1428 Views
But...
- 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
1162 Views
Re: But...
- 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
1327 Views
That still doesn't make sense.
- 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
1407 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
1410 Views
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
1410 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
- 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
1250 Views
Nonsense.
- 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
1140 Views
Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
1325 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
1300 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
- 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
1179 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
- 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
1239 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
824 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
777 Views
Ok, in more detail:
- 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
1325 Views
Thoughts
- 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
1165 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
1130 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
1193 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
- 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
1411 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
1232 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
1010 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
1254 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
1331 Views
That's not fair
- 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
1197 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
1135 Views
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
1135 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
718 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
846 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
- 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
1154 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
- 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
1273 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
1373 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
1342 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
797 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
- 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
1317 Views
Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
1077 Views
Re: Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
1210 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
- 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
1171 Views
And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
971 Views
Re: And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
1301 Views
Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
1282 Views
Re: Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
1219 Views
Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
1348 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
1232 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
1252 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
1108 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
1267 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts.
- 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
1213 Views
Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
1261 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
1330 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
- 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
1270 Views
I disagree.
- 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
1629 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
643 Views
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
643 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
- 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
1196 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
1202 Views
I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
1298 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
1271 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
- 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
1244 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
- 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
1253 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
- 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
759 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
1232 Views

*NM*