Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM
Your posts mistake precognition with the result of planning and the affects of unintended consequences.
The trail seems subtle, but you fail to see that there are elements in this trail that don't require any one specific talent: someone with sufficient skill in interrogation might have uncovered this, someone with sufficient skill at heraldry and history might have uncovered part of it (in fact someone did), someone with the Delving skill might have detected poison, someone with skills with poisons and alchemy might have detected and identified the poison, etc.
If Graendal wanted someone dead, there is nothing preventing her from Travelling to the location, eliminating the target, and obscuring her escape path so that it can't be traced. She specifically chose a method that could be detected to get his attention, and direct his attention to a particular place. She has shown her willingness and capability to do this - that is how she collected so many members of her collection, so what surprises me is that you seem to think that she doesn't have the temperament to personally make sure her headquarters remained hidden, leaving it up to other agents.
The problem with your line of reasoning is that you make this seem a requirement, when they are not. It wasn't necessary for any one of those skills to be present in one person for her trail to be discovered, but it was sufficient. The fact that Nynaeve had all of these was a coup. Perhaps Rand showed up earlier because of this combination of abilities, and this is what may have lead Graendal to weave a hasty Compulsion on Ramshalan and flee.
The trail seems subtle, but you fail to see that there are elements in this trail that don't require any one specific talent: someone with sufficient skill in interrogation might have uncovered this, someone with sufficient skill at heraldry and history might have uncovered part of it (in fact someone did), someone with the Delving skill might have detected poison, someone with skills with poisons and alchemy might have detected and identified the poison, etc.
If Graendal wanted someone dead, there is nothing preventing her from Travelling to the location, eliminating the target, and obscuring her escape path so that it can't be traced. She specifically chose a method that could be detected to get his attention, and direct his attention to a particular place. She has shown her willingness and capability to do this - that is how she collected so many members of her collection, so what surprises me is that you seem to think that she doesn't have the temperament to personally make sure her headquarters remained hidden, leaving it up to other agents.
The problem with your line of reasoning is that you make this seem a requirement, when they are not. It wasn't necessary for any one of those skills to be present in one person for her trail to be discovered, but it was sufficient. The fact that Nynaeve had all of these was a coup. Perhaps Rand showed up earlier because of this combination of abilities, and this is what may have lead Graendal to weave a hasty Compulsion on Ramshalan and flee.
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
This message last edited by RugbyPlayingAshaman on 29/01/2010 at 04:51:56 PM
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
3158 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene
- 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
1899 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
- 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
1706 Views
After reading 12 WoT books...
- 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
1815 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
- 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
3168 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
1752 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
1676 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
- 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
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Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
- 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
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that's kind of my whole point
- 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
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None of those "easy explanations" could work
- 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
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my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
- 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
1582 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
- 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
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Do we have evidence that this is possible?
- 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
1643 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
1394 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
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Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
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- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
- 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
1691 Views
I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
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Re: I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
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Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
- 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
832 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
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Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
1459 Views
Stop passing judgments...
- 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
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But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
- 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
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I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
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Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
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Dude, then you derailed the thread...
- 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
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no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
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Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
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read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
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LOL! You read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
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the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
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Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
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I don't see any flaws.
- 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
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But...
- 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
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Re: But...
- 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
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That still doesn't make sense.
- 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
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But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
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- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
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But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
- 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
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Nonsense.
- 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
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Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
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Re: Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
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Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
- 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
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I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
- 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
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Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
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Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
906 Views
Ok, in more detail:
- 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
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Thoughts
- 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
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Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
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Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
1437 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
- 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
1675 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
1468 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
1227 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
1538 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
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That's not fair
- 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
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I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
842 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
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I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
- 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
1402 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
- 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
1526 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
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Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
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Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
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Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
- 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
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Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
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Re: Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
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Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
- 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
1412 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
- 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM
1474 Views
And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
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Re: And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
1529 Views
Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
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Re: Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
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Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
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That's because you didn't look at other posts.
- 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
1487 Views
Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
1514 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
1572 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
- 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
1546 Views
I disagree.
- 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
1870 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
760 Views
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
760 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
- 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
1447 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
1464 Views
I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
1566 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
1510 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
- 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
1495 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
- 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
1482 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
- 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
878 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
1551 Views

*NM*