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I never said well-written, I said complex. Gher Send a noteboard - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM
Not that I don't think it is well-written, I'm just in no real position to judge.

But it is a story about a family from Jerusalem. They split up shortly after arriving in the New World, forming two civilizations. They write their history, and up until a point it is written directly by them. Then, we are told that from here on out, the writings are abridgments of many other documents and records. The descendants then meet up with another completely separate civilization that came from Jerusalem, who have found the writings of another much more ancient civilization, but are unable to translate it. We are then given more of their history, of their many wars and struggles. We follow them up to ~400 AD. Then the person who has abridged most of the book passes it on to his Son, who then abridges and inserts the records found by the second group from Jerusalem, the records of the very ancient civilization. Then, the son writes a few words, and includes letters and other things from his father and his time.

There are a lot of different authors. And they seem to have different interests. When Nephi (the very first) writes about wars and contentions, he simply states that there were wars and contentions. When Mormon (the one who abridged much of the record) writes of war, he is much more descriptive, focusing heavily on what was going on. Considering he was a general for his people, his interest in war is understandable. His son, who is one of the last survivors of his people, abridges the records of another people who killed themselves off. Many of the authors in the latter part of the beginning write almost nothing, save that they received the record, and passed it on.

It's too complex for a dim-witted farmboy.

I will strive to ignore the taste of having thrown up in my mouth and continue, however.


Please, lets keep this a polite discussion. You don't agree with me. I know that!

Let's stick to some of the major disputes I have with what you wrote:

1. The fundamental, baseline requirement for being Christian is generally a belief in the Trinity, that God is one being in three Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that Christ is God made man, who suffered, died and rose from the dead in an act of salvation. If you do not believe that, YOU ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. You can talk about Jesus and feel he's important, but Muslims, Baha'i and other groups like Jehovah's Witnesses do that. It doesn't make you Christian.


Fundamental and baseline according to the First Ecumenical Council . Fundamental and baseline according to you, even.

We do not simply talk about Christ and feel he's important. We believe he is the one and only way to salvation. That his Atonement is the greatest event in the history of everything. That he wants each of us to follow him, and that he loves everyone with a pure love we can hardly fathom. He is the Son of God, and the Only Begotten in the flesh. He is not simply some great moral teacher, or a guy with good ideas.

2. You believe that God was as man is, and man will be as God is. This directly contradicts Isaiah, where God says there are no other gods. This is a rejection of the Trinity and a rejection of the Bible.


Yes, we believe that. But we do not believe that there is a god greater than God. There are no other gods we can or should pray to. I don't know how all that works. But for this universe and creation, there is One God.

3. You ask where prophecy has been made obsolete. Hebrews 1:1. Furthermore, the Bible tells us to be on watch for false prophets and antichrists, and Joe Smith was definitely a false prophet. False prophets and antichrists deny Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). We know a false prophet in two ways: (1) he asks us to follow gods other than God (Deuteronomy 13:1) or (2) if any prophecy he makes does not come true (Deuteronomy 18:21). Joe Smith said the US government would collapse before 1900, he said that there were people on the moon and a whole bunch of other things that were lies. He presumed to translate an Egyptian funerary scroll as a "Book of Moses", which was a lie and a fabrication. He also preaches polytheism in a convenient veil of "the Godhead", which is not the same as God the Father, who is not the only God in Joe Smith's little fantasy world. By either of those standards he would have been stoned to death under Biblical law.


Hebrews 1:1 says that he spoke to prophets. Other verses say he sent his Son, who is greater than the prophets. And then... nothing. Nothing says that no more prophets are needed.

Joseph Smith did not deny Jesus is the Christ. He did not ask anyone to follow gods other than God. I've never heard of those prophecies you talk of.

4. Your baptism is not a baptism for the forgiveness of sins, which is what the Biblical baptism is all about: "Confessing their sins, they were baptized by [John] in the Jordan River" (Matthew 3:6).


What is "my" baptism then?

5. The Book of Mormon is a direct contradiction of Galatians 1:9. Not only that, but you have refuted or ignored so much of the Bible that there is almost no point in having it sit next to the Book of Mormon. You should try reading the entire Bible, if only to realize that you are violating almost everything that it says.


It is not a contradiction. It is Another Testament. I have not read the entire Bible, something I do need to do. But I have read much of it, and most of the New Testament. I do not see that I am "violating almost everything that it says". Honestly, they mesh quite well.

6. Joe Smith was dim-witted. His Book of Mormon is a terrible farce of a book, written with no skill, repeating phrases from the King James Bible and garbling nearly all of them, and so riddled with errors and sentence fragments that it's been revised and revised and revised. It doesn't take a genius to write the Book of Mormon. Here, let me show you:

And it came to pass, that Jophim said to Jophiriah, his son, "Take thee thine oxen and scrumbles and cattle and goest thou unto the land of the Morriphi, and when thou arrivest, tell them that the LORD sends His wrath upon them, and take thou then their land from them. And it came to pass that Jophiriah took his oxen and scrumbles and cattle and went up to the land of the Morriphi, and he found there Cordiah, high priest of the Morriphi...


Congratulations, you have managed a verse.


Yes, I did just skip the latter part of your post. I don't see the point when discussion hits this level of hostility. This is the point where we settle down and yell at each other. I will keep those books in mind.

I will comment on one part:
...All the way up until a rightly angry mob took justice into their own hands...


This is wrong. He had done nothing to make them a "rightly" angry mob. Angry mobs have stoned and killed prophets before, and they are not "right".
"And it breaks my heart to look around, and see the unimpressed; who can't believe the emperor is dressed"~Fastball
2-7-1
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