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I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked Joel Send a noteboard - 04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM
Regarding the article, the statement near the start:
We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.

seems like a meaningless distinction to me. Were that the only problem there would BE little problem, but Joseph Smith himself affirming the strictest understanding of monotheism in one sermon and a "plurality of Gods" in another is an irreconcilable issue just within Mormon doctrine itself, before even considering whether it can be reconciled with Christianity.

I am only guessing, but is the bit about turning peoples skin dark for disobedience a reference to Ham? If so, it seems a like convenient revisionism to me, but I fail to see why it generated so much shock here. The concept is hardly novel, and saying someone, along with their descendants, was punished with darker skin and suffering for disobedience, is not an endorsement of that suffering, only an attempt to explain it.



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Tom covered my objections nicely, but my own take can be found here:
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Mormons CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM 2479 Views
Questions. Kuke - 03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM 1219 Views
Ooh! Ooh! Kuke - 03/10/2011 11:18:38 AM 1092 Views
I don't watch it. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:34:53 AM 1099 Views
Re: Questions. CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 01:28:28 PM 1199 Views
Re: Questions. CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 01:31:13 PM 1028 Views
I don't understand why they would be called drinks, if they were not meant to be drunk. aerocontrols - 03/10/2011 03:28:48 PM 1127 Views
Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM* beetnemesis - 03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM 664 Views
Wyld Stallyns!! aerocontrols - 03/10/2011 03:26:54 PM 1006 Views
STATION! *NM* Two Wongs - 03/10/2011 11:00:35 PM 599 Views
Re: One of the best replies, ever, on the internet. *NM* Gaps - 06/10/2011 02:43:07 AM 653 Views
....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM* LadyLorraine - 03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM 620 Views
Nope. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM 1071 Views
there's no real point to it LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM 2098 Views
We could use an evil cackling smilie, we do have some other evil ones Isaac - 04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM 1033 Views
wasn't going to argue... *NM* LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:57:00 AM 602 Views
Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?" Ghavrel - 03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM 1142 Views
There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM* Legolas - 03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM 607 Views
In fairness, I wonder the same about Christian literalists. *NM* Ghavrel - 03/10/2011 07:57:19 PM 658 Views
Yeah, but if you're gonna believe absurdities... Legolas - 03/10/2011 09:02:32 PM 1131 Views
Are you trying to suggest that "Reformed" or some other brand of scientology is plausible? Joel - 04/10/2011 04:28:40 PM 1088 Views
Actually, no. It'd be like laughing at... Hosea. Or Nemeiah. It's just an old name. Gher - 04/10/2011 12:30:57 AM 1051 Views
I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there ironclad - 03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM 1056 Views
There are Fundamentalist "Mormons" who do... Danu - 03/10/2011 11:32:56 PM 979 Views
Don't get me wrong by the way, I've met wonderful Mormons ironclad - 04/10/2011 12:22:03 PM 1036 Views
Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM* Urza - 03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM 515 Views
Answer: because it's the only way he could return your burning love for him. Nate - 03/10/2011 03:24:23 PM 738 Views
Oh dont be such a fuddy duddy. Urza - 03/10/2011 10:42:06 PM 691 Views
Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM* everynametaken - 04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM 635 Views
Well, I suppose you'ld be the one to know. *NM* Urza - 04/10/2011 01:54:35 AM 563 Views
Really? You really just pulled a "takes one to know one"? *NM* Kronin al'Sulc - 04/10/2011 04:19:22 PM 669 Views
Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM* Gaps - 04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM 524 Views
I'll tell you whats embarresing... Urza - 04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM 855 Views
That is hilarious. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM 741 Views
Goodness.. Urza - 04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM 670 Views
Re: Nate - 04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM 708 Views
You know, my mother had a saying. Urza - 04/10/2011 03:39:32 AM 746 Views
I think it's safe to say ... Nate - 04/10/2011 04:09:17 AM 642 Views
I'm not sure which would be sadder... Legolas - 04/10/2011 11:32:55 AM 781 Views
*NM* ironclad - 04/10/2011 12:19:01 PM 603 Views
Re: You flatter me. *NM* Gaps - 04/10/2011 01:31:01 PM 632 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly beetnemesis - 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM 663 Views
"Re" doesn't have to mean "reply", it can also mean "regarding". Legolas - 04/10/2011 02:01:31 PM 686 Views
Re: Re: Gaps - 04/10/2011 02:06:58 PM 690 Views
Re: Re: Stephen - 04/10/2011 02:12:57 PM 655 Views
Re: Also. Gaps - 04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM 700 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM* LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM 646 Views
He's doing it on purpose though. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM 772 Views
Re: Yeah, it's just a shtick... Gaps - 04/10/2011 03:47:17 PM 661 Views
Those were the good old days. Nate - 04/10/2011 04:02:33 PM 676 Views
*NM* TaskmasterJack - 04/10/2011 10:02:30 PM 584 Views
I agree, it's driving me nuts *NM* ironclad - 04/10/2011 02:36:45 PM 572 Views
That's not quite right, actually. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:25:54 PM 598 Views
Disagree. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 04/10/2011 10:04:09 PM 602 Views
Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. Great Lord of Chaos - 04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM 636 Views
Re: Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. Urza - 04/10/2011 02:37:41 AM 664 Views
Heh. Oh, Ryan. Kronin al'Sulc - 04/10/2011 04:36:43 PM 783 Views
*sigh* to all of you above.... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM 679 Views
I thought that was "Do not talk about /b/"? *NM* Great Lord of Chaos - 04/10/2011 03:12:52 AM 666 Views
i don't know, but if THAT is the first rule... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:41:20 AM 632 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians. Tom - 03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM 1218 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though LadyLorraine - 03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM 1107 Views
We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM 1091 Views
"Even Christ didn't do that"? I can't agree. Legolas - 03/10/2011 09:00:34 PM 1075 Views
I conceded your last point. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 10:14:28 PM 970 Views
Point of Anal Retentive Dissent: Joel - 04/10/2011 03:54:00 PM 996 Views
That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however. Tom - 03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM 1084 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM 1030 Views
Oh, that's very simple Tom - 04/10/2011 04:02:24 AM 1054 Views
I honestly don't know what it would take. Dannymac - 04/10/2011 07:41:55 AM 1047 Views
thank you, both of you LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 01:46:05 PM 1033 Views
I love the Nicene Creed. It is such an excellent encapsulation. Rebekah - 03/10/2011 06:07:53 PM 1126 Views
Agreed. Joel - 04/10/2011 04:44:49 PM 996 Views
The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's) Jeordam - 03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM 1074 Views
Glad you enjoyed it Tom - 03/10/2011 10:10:39 PM 1156 Views
Though they can cause interesting changes in patterns. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 10:16:55 PM 1116 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM 1142 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. Tom - 04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM 1316 Views
I never said well-written, I said complex. Gher - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM 1198 Views
Ignore facts all you want to. Tom - 05/10/2011 01:07:35 AM 1086 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM 1287 Views
Woah nelly. Ghavrel - 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM 1088 Views
I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM 1016 Views
Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM 1125 Views
oh well that makes it all better... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM 1128 Views
Exactly ironclad - 04/10/2011 06:00:54 PM 1046 Views
Was the twin banging and the gay wedding the same event? Joel - 04/10/2011 06:36:03 PM 1112 Views
Yikes. Even for religion, that's more than a little crazy. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:47:56 PM 1112 Views
I don't think there's much of a difference in crazy as opposed to other more mainstream religions. Vivien - 04/10/2011 07:08:06 PM 1077 Views
A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine. Joel - 04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM 1062 Views
Then why can't women be priests? Or enter the altar? The curse on Eve is very much in place. *NM* Aeryn - 05/10/2011 12:27:04 AM 577 Views
OK, within the Mormon context I can see that point. Joel - 05/10/2011 12:33:52 AM 1007 Views
They can in quite a few denominations. *NM* Ghavrel - 05/10/2011 06:12:35 AM 627 Views
Whoops! You meant in LDS specifically. My mistake. *NM* Ghavrel - 05/10/2011 06:14:05 AM 590 Views
Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM 858 Views
Yes, that is kind of the problem. Joel - 06/10/2011 12:13:27 AM 1031 Views
Oh, you didn't know? Joe Smith said black people are cursed for following Satan. Tom - 05/10/2011 01:10:35 AM 1056 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked Joel - 04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM 999 Views
it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel" LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM 1038 Views
It is not NECESSARILY racist. Joel - 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM 1060 Views
Sure, except ... Nate - 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM 1092 Views
Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors... Joel - 04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM 981 Views
Yeah, circular logic is fun, isn't it? Tom - 05/10/2011 01:09:25 AM 1010 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian." Joel - 04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM 1097 Views
I think we've had this discussion before. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM 1089 Views
Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian. Joel - 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM 985 Views
Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism. Legolas - 07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM 1331 Views
I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies. Joel - 07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM 1425 Views
Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ Larry - 07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM 1016 Views
Virtually everyone has a more sound Christology than Mormons. Tom - 07/10/2011 06:45:45 PM 1072 Views
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Joel - 08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM 1087 Views
I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM 982 Views
Tempting as it is to prove Joel wrong (since he so frequently is), I need to take issue with this. Tom - 07/10/2011 06:59:13 PM 1070 Views
I was just saying there were competing views. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM 1457 Views
Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM 968 Views
That sounds really nice. Vivien - 04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM 1046 Views
Why wait though? Joel - 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM 1215 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM* Aeryn - 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM 552 Views
Ack, not reading and thinking111 Joel - 05/10/2011 12:36:11 AM 1036 Views
I really want an answer from a mormon. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM 1066 Views
Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one Joel - 06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM 978 Views
Yeah, that's what I thought. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM 976 Views
I'm satisfied by that explanation. Vivien - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM 1210 Views
Re: I'm satisfied by that explanation. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:45:29 PM 1054 Views
Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head* everynametaken - 04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM 880 Views
....i don't know what you look like LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM 1010 Views
Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave. *NM* everynametaken - 05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM 690 Views
Took the words right out of my mouth, repeatedly. Joel - 04/10/2011 12:49:13 PM 1210 Views
Off-Topic Larry - 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM 991 Views
Hmm Tom - 05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM 1174 Views
True Larry - 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM 964 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy. Tom - 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM 1076 Views
Maybe Xeroxes of abridged texts and dumbed down theology Larry - 06/10/2011 02:26:58 AM 1188 Views
I like that analogy - an echo chamber! *NM* Tom - 08/10/2011 10:44:04 PM 598 Views
Re: Off-Topic CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM 1220 Views
Uhh... Larry - 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM 1002 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets. CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM 1120 Views
And you know that because... why, again? Joel - 05/10/2011 07:13:53 AM 1051 Views
Tough Crowd. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 04:44:31 PM 1165 Views
No questions. Have a nice day. TaskmasterJack - 03/10/2011 11:40:58 PM 1012 Views
Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? *NM* Dan - 04/10/2011 03:58:16 AM 679 Views
Re: Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 05:23:12 PM 1120 Views
Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed. everynametaken - 04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM 1050 Views
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