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I'm satisfied by that explanation. Vivien Send a noteboard - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM


If we are baptized in this life, the ordinance is done. If we are not, it can be done for us by proxy.

This is one doctrine that has always seemed so logical to me, I never have quite understood the attention and debate it stirs. Christ came to save all men. What about all the people who have never even heard his name? There are still people today who do not know anything about Christ. They have not been baptized, but it's not because they rejected Christ. Are they just out of luck?

Instead, we believe that they can learn the gospel in the afterlife, and can accept it. We perform their baptism for them, and they can choose to accept it or not. But it means it is their choice, not something beyond their control because of circumstances.



I really like this part of your religion. Not that it would help me, but still. This is good.

But then- shouldn't this be an argument *against* missionaries? What if you fail to convince someone and that person rejects Christ in this life. It seems like you'd be able to be more convincing in the afterlife.


But a person must have a clear chance to accept it. There isn't any clear definition what that means, because it's different for every person. If the missionaries knock, and get a door slammed in their face, it likely doesn't mean the person's chance is up. They didn't know enough to reject it. So if the missionaries "fail to convince someone" like you said, it doesn't necessarily mean they're out of luck.

And though it does seem like it'd be impossible to not believe the gospel if you are actually in the afterlife, it will happen. Doesn't make much sense, but I don't think our mortal minds are that good at comprehending non-mortal existence.

And then, beside all that, living the gospel is the key to true joy. It's the difference of helping people find happiness now, as opposed to up to 100 years later on..



Those are really good answers. Both that telling someone now doesn't necessarily use up their chance, and that you want to tell them now because you want to and because you believe they will be happier and more fulfilled in this life as a result, regardless of the afterlife.



It might be a personal question, but why do you think this? I don't care what you've done. You're never too unworthy to pray to God. You can always be forgiven if you are sincere in asking. Please don't think you are beyond help.



Oh Gosh it's not about what I've done and my worth. It's almost funny, that's almost exactly backwards. I was christian for a fairly decent period of time and I made a choice to turn away from Christ, as you'd say it. Not a decision made lightly or suddenly.

My behavior didn't change, it's not like a story from a teen bible study group where the lapsed christian uses drugs and risky behavior to fill the void in his/her soul. Couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, I've never ever tried any recreational drugs. I have drank alcohol but not much and not very often. I almost never drank in high school and rarely in college and now I'm probably in the heyday of my drinking days but realistically I have alcohol an average of once a month.

Hahaha, I just googled what else mormons don't allow and guess what- I would have no problem with a coffee ban because I don't drink it anyway. I'm also not gay so I'd have no problem with not being gay. I have had premarital sex but I mean, I'm 25- if I hadn't at this point it would certainly be my new year's resolution to fix that. Oh! Also- I almost never curse and I don't like it when I'm around people that do. If I feel comfortable and I want to spend more time with someone who curses a lot I'll ask him or her to try to curse less. [And I dislike it for many reasons- for one thing people don't realize you're angry or upset unless you curse but that's a whole other topic]

Not that I think any of the above define a person's "worth"! I've only addressed those points because that's what came up with google. The point is, it's not about anything I've done that makes me unworthy or scared. The point is I simply don't believe. I just cannot be sincere in praying to God or asking for forgiveness/help. If it's real- if there is an all powerful God out there- I don't love him with any part of my heart.

Numerous edits because I tried to fix the quote thing and then I thought of the cursing thing.
This message last edited by Vivien on 06/10/2011 at 09:12:07 PM
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There are Fundamentalist "Mormons" who do... Danu - 03/10/2011 11:32:56 PM 994 Views
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Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM* Urza - 03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM 523 Views
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Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM* everynametaken - 04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM 642 Views
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*NM* ironclad - 04/10/2011 12:19:01 PM 611 Views
Re: You flatter me. *NM* Gaps - 04/10/2011 01:31:01 PM 639 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly beetnemesis - 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM 669 Views
"Re" doesn't have to mean "reply", it can also mean "regarding". Legolas - 04/10/2011 02:01:31 PM 695 Views
Re: Re: Gaps - 04/10/2011 02:06:58 PM 697 Views
Re: Re: Stephen - 04/10/2011 02:12:57 PM 662 Views
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you are still using it incorrectly. *NM* LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM 655 Views
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Re: Yeah, it's just a shtick... Gaps - 04/10/2011 03:47:17 PM 667 Views
Those were the good old days. Nate - 04/10/2011 04:02:33 PM 683 Views
*NM* TaskmasterJack - 04/10/2011 10:02:30 PM 593 Views
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Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. Great Lord of Chaos - 04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM 644 Views
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I thought that was "Do not talk about /b/"? *NM* Great Lord of Chaos - 04/10/2011 03:12:52 AM 678 Views
i don't know, but if THAT is the first rule... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:41:20 AM 639 Views
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you know, that does make me wonder though LadyLorraine - 03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM 1124 Views
We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM 1108 Views
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I conceded your last point. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 10:14:28 PM 992 Views
Point of Anal Retentive Dissent: Joel - 04/10/2011 03:54:00 PM 1011 Views
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I understand what both you and Danny are saying LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM 1045 Views
Oh, that's very simple Tom - 04/10/2011 04:02:24 AM 1070 Views
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thank you, both of you LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 01:46:05 PM 1050 Views
I love the Nicene Creed. It is such an excellent encapsulation. Rebekah - 03/10/2011 06:07:53 PM 1142 Views
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The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's) Jeordam - 03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM 1088 Views
Glad you enjoyed it Tom - 03/10/2011 10:10:39 PM 1174 Views
Though they can cause interesting changes in patterns. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 10:16:55 PM 1132 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM 1159 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. Tom - 04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM 1333 Views
I never said well-written, I said complex. Gher - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM 1213 Views
Ignore facts all you want to. Tom - 05/10/2011 01:07:35 AM 1107 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM 1303 Views
Woah nelly. Ghavrel - 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM 1105 Views
I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM 1034 Views
Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM 1141 Views
oh well that makes it all better... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM 1144 Views
Exactly ironclad - 04/10/2011 06:00:54 PM 1061 Views
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I don't think there's much of a difference in crazy as opposed to other more mainstream religions. Vivien - 04/10/2011 07:08:06 PM 1091 Views
A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine. Joel - 04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM 1078 Views
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They can in quite a few denominations. *NM* Ghavrel - 05/10/2011 06:12:35 AM 634 Views
Whoops! You meant in LDS specifically. My mistake. *NM* Ghavrel - 05/10/2011 06:14:05 AM 600 Views
Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM 888 Views
Yes, that is kind of the problem. Joel - 06/10/2011 12:13:27 AM 1050 Views
Oh, you didn't know? Joe Smith said black people are cursed for following Satan. Tom - 05/10/2011 01:10:35 AM 1076 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked Joel - 04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM 1018 Views
it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel" LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM 1054 Views
It is not NECESSARILY racist. Joel - 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM 1076 Views
Sure, except ... Nate - 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM 1107 Views
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Yeah, circular logic is fun, isn't it? Tom - 05/10/2011 01:09:25 AM 1025 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian." Joel - 04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM 1116 Views
I think we've had this discussion before. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM 1107 Views
Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian. Joel - 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM 1001 Views
Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism. Legolas - 07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM 1349 Views
I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies. Joel - 07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM 1439 Views
Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ Larry - 07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM 1034 Views
Virtually everyone has a more sound Christology than Mormons. Tom - 07/10/2011 06:45:45 PM 1092 Views
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Joel - 08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM 1104 Views
I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM 999 Views
Tempting as it is to prove Joel wrong (since he so frequently is), I need to take issue with this. Tom - 07/10/2011 06:59:13 PM 1084 Views
I was just saying there were competing views. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM 1472 Views
Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM 985 Views
That sounds really nice. Vivien - 04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM 1065 Views
Why wait though? Joel - 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM 1236 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM* Aeryn - 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM 565 Views
Ack, not reading and thinking111 Joel - 05/10/2011 12:36:11 AM 1050 Views
I really want an answer from a mormon. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM 1083 Views
Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one Joel - 06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM 993 Views
Yeah, that's what I thought. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM 991 Views
I'm satisfied by that explanation. Vivien - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM 1235 Views
Re: I'm satisfied by that explanation. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:45:29 PM 1068 Views
Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head* everynametaken - 04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM 896 Views
....i don't know what you look like LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM 1030 Views
Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave. *NM* everynametaken - 05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM 697 Views
Took the words right out of my mouth, repeatedly. Joel - 04/10/2011 12:49:13 PM 1230 Views
Off-Topic Larry - 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM 1007 Views
Hmm Tom - 05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM 1189 Views
True Larry - 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM 980 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy. Tom - 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM 1092 Views
Maybe Xeroxes of abridged texts and dumbed down theology Larry - 06/10/2011 02:26:58 AM 1200 Views
I like that analogy - an echo chamber! *NM* Tom - 08/10/2011 10:44:04 PM 606 Views
Re: Off-Topic CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM 1236 Views
Uhh... Larry - 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM 1017 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets. CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM 1137 Views
And you know that because... why, again? Joel - 05/10/2011 07:13:53 AM 1070 Views
Tough Crowd. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 04:44:31 PM 1178 Views
No questions. Have a nice day. TaskmasterJack - 03/10/2011 11:40:58 PM 1029 Views
Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? *NM* Dan - 04/10/2011 03:58:16 AM 686 Views
Re: Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 05:23:12 PM 1138 Views
Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed. everynametaken - 04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM 1070 Views
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