I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
Tom Send a noteboard - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM
I want to address that.
"Do you like it?" is not a way of determining if someone is a good writer. It's a way of determining if someone tells an interesting story. I like reading Dan Brown books but I don't think anyone would even try to say he's a good writer. He uses cheap cliffhanger devices to keep you turning the pages. His characters are as deep as a puddle of spilled water and his descriptions are awful, like they've been lifted from the most cliché Harlequin romance novel.
Dan Brown is, in short, something like a car crash. You know it's terrible but the story is fun and so you can't help but read. He's not a good writer, though.
Being a "good writer" typically means several things:
1. Style. A good author chooses his words well, doesn't waste the reader's time and avoids repetition of stock phrases.
2. Aesthetics. A good author has descriptions that paint beautiful pictures. This isn't limited to traditional description, either. DomA mentioned Flaubert; I would add someone like Nabokov. Consider the beginning of Lolita:
Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta.
She was Lo, plain Lo, in the morning, standing four feet ten in one sock. She was Lola in slacks. She was Dolly at school. She was Dolores on the dotted line. But in my arms she was always Lolita.
3. Ideas. Books can be simply entertainment, but usually a good author will fuse entertainment with ideas - the "moral of the story" as the old saying goes. Part of being human is being mortal, knowing that we're going to die, and trying to make some sense out of life while we're here. When a book has a message, it resonates with people and they take that message and make it a part of their lives.
If we're going to look strictly at the genre of fantasy/sci-fi, then you can add "world building" as an element with many facets, where a good author will create a world that feels authentic by creating plausible histories, cultures, language fragments and a framework for why or how things like dragons or magic exist.
In the first three categories Jordan cannot be called a good writer. His style is very formulaic. The books are not written with aesthetics in mind. There are no big ideas.
On world-building, some people think Jordan came close. I see an uneven result, with a terrible "Old Tongue", a lot of countries that really sound the same and a history that is only partially plausible. However, given the absolutely atrocious efforts of others in this field, Jordan isn't so bad.
The story is fairly interesting and keeps people reading, but it's not the way it's told that people like. If someone else grabbed Jordan's story and told it in different words, people wouldn't be upset. To be specific, there are people who like Goodkind and/or Sanderson's continuation of the story at this very website.
"Do you like it?" is not a way of determining if someone is a good writer. It's a way of determining if someone tells an interesting story. I like reading Dan Brown books but I don't think anyone would even try to say he's a good writer. He uses cheap cliffhanger devices to keep you turning the pages. His characters are as deep as a puddle of spilled water and his descriptions are awful, like they've been lifted from the most cliché Harlequin romance novel.
Dan Brown is, in short, something like a car crash. You know it's terrible but the story is fun and so you can't help but read. He's not a good writer, though.
Being a "good writer" typically means several things:
1. Style. A good author chooses his words well, doesn't waste the reader's time and avoids repetition of stock phrases.
2. Aesthetics. A good author has descriptions that paint beautiful pictures. This isn't limited to traditional description, either. DomA mentioned Flaubert; I would add someone like Nabokov. Consider the beginning of Lolita:
Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta.
She was Lo, plain Lo, in the morning, standing four feet ten in one sock. She was Lola in slacks. She was Dolly at school. She was Dolores on the dotted line. But in my arms she was always Lolita.
3. Ideas. Books can be simply entertainment, but usually a good author will fuse entertainment with ideas - the "moral of the story" as the old saying goes. Part of being human is being mortal, knowing that we're going to die, and trying to make some sense out of life while we're here. When a book has a message, it resonates with people and they take that message and make it a part of their lives.
If we're going to look strictly at the genre of fantasy/sci-fi, then you can add "world building" as an element with many facets, where a good author will create a world that feels authentic by creating plausible histories, cultures, language fragments and a framework for why or how things like dragons or magic exist.
In the first three categories Jordan cannot be called a good writer. His style is very formulaic. The books are not written with aesthetics in mind. There are no big ideas.
On world-building, some people think Jordan came close. I see an uneven result, with a terrible "Old Tongue", a lot of countries that really sound the same and a history that is only partially plausible. However, given the absolutely atrocious efforts of others in this field, Jordan isn't so bad.
The story is fairly interesting and keeps people reading, but it's not the way it's told that people like. If someone else grabbed Jordan's story and told it in different words, people wouldn't be upset. To be specific, there are people who like Goodkind and/or Sanderson's continuation of the story at this very website.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
- 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM
3404 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer.
- 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM
1810 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured
- 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM
1437 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
- 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM
1299 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
- 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM
1383 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
- 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM
1799 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. *NM*
- 22/02/2011 02:39:20 PM
981 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
- 22/02/2011 02:41:37 PM
1250 Views
That's possibly the best explanation of literary criticism I've ever seen.
- 23/02/2011 02:47:12 AM
1370 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
- 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM
1832 Views
- 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM
1832 Views
Re: I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
- 22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM
1476 Views
- 22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM
1476 Views
That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a channeler.
- 22/02/2011 11:30:52 PM
1375 Views
Re: That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a
- 23/02/2011 12:02:24 AM
1388 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ...
- 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM
1383 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
- 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM
2252 Views
I think it has more to do with limitations imposed by how the story was organized and edited.
- 22/02/2011 07:50:18 PM
1721 Views
That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
- 23/02/2011 02:15:12 AM
1484 Views
Re: That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
- 23/02/2011 11:02:14 AM
1432 Views
adam roberts reviews
- 23/02/2011 03:53:49 AM
1483 Views
And I suspect those who prefer the BS books are those who largely read WoT for the story. *NM*
- 23/02/2011 08:06:16 AM
838 Views
Oh GAWD!... not another pointer to Robert Adam's incoherant muckraking
- 24/02/2011 07:47:35 PM
1304 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
- 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM
1673 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
- 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM
1590 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know.
*NM*
- 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM
786 Views
*NM*
- 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM
786 Views
There are nine, actually...
- 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM
1593 Views
Lovecraft's Necronomicon was fictitious. If you want to count fanfiction, fine. *NM*
- 23/02/2011 12:38:07 AM
857 Views
Based on how poorly worded that response was, I'm not sure what to think of it. *NM*
- 23/02/2011 12:13:00 AM
845 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you.
- 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM
1273 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you.
- 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM
1414 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
- 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM
1373 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
- 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM
1263 Views
So wait, style is good?
- 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM
1624 Views
That depends...
- 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM
1535 Views
I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria.
- 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM
1407 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion
- 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM
1378 Views
If you don't mind me asking...
- 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM
1228 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
- 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM
1230 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
- 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM
1353 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
- 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM
1402 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
- 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM
1315 Views
...
- 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM
1244 Views
It is not a serious question.
- 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM
1289 Views
Is that so?
- 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM
1399 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan.
- 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM
1344 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him?
- 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM
1392 Views
You're conflating two things.
- 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM
1419 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere.
- 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM
1322 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity.
- 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM
1146 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM*
- 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM
790 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered.
- 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM
1301 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
- 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM
1451 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
- 25/02/2011 06:05:18 PM
1825 Views
I'm not wasting my time proving something to an internet moron and troll like you.
- 25/02/2011 07:36:19 PM
1205 Views
Ah yes, the wonderful "dissmiss the person who disagrees with me by insulting him tactic"
- 28/02/2011 02:30:35 PM
1207 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
- 26/02/2011 11:06:26 AM
1232 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly
- 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM
1458 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
- 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM
1235 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
- 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM
1435 Views
Of course people read for pleasure.
- 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM
1239 Views
Ok...
- 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM
1246 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument.
- 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM
1338 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"?
- 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM
1325 Views
Among living writers?
- 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM
1389 Views
My list would be similar...
- 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM
1487 Views
That was a very good list.
- 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM
1376 Views
Re: That was a very good list.
- 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM
1403 Views
Oh, and another question
- 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM
1141 Views
Re: Oh, and another question
- 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM
1345 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM
1534 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM
1443 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM
1445 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM
1320 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM*
- 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM
870 Views

*NM*