I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria.
Tom Send a noteboard - 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM
Style, aesthetics and ideas. It's clear that Jordan isn't meaningful literature, though, so I did mention that books that are entertainment don't really need a big idea.
The problem I have with Jordan is that it's not a joy to read it for its own sake. Aesthetically and stylistically it's a train wreck. You read it for one reason, and one reason only - the story. The problem that I then have with Jordan is that the story was good for the first six books and then just got bogged down.
You are being extremely charitable when you say that he had a grand experiment that he poorly executed. I think he was like most other writers in the genre - he had a good idea that he thought he could cash in on. He knew he needed a big climactic finish at the end of each book but at a certain point he had thrown on so much unnecessary detail that he couldn't get the pieces in the right spot, and so for book after book he just kept fiddling with things but not moving it anywhere because he knew each new piece of crap he turned out would still sell. He wanted to finish the series, of course, but he was content to release sub-par work (even for him) because he was thinking about paying his bills. I don't blame him - every author without another job has an eye to the profit angle (Dumas certainly did, to take your example).
I just don't think that he had the grand vision. He was going to write a trilogy, and it just started expanding, and at a certain point it expanded beyond his ability to generate thrilling conclusions to each book.
As for this forum, I don't even want to think about how many websites there are out there for the Twilight series. Having a forum isn't an indication of writing talent in the least. I'm also sure Dan Brown has some fansites out there (and a fair number of them probably believe that he's publishing facts as fiction to avoid being murdered by the Federal Reserve).
I've bashed WoT a bit more than it perhaps deserves at times, but I generally agree with your assessment, with the caveats listed here.
The problem I have with Jordan is that it's not a joy to read it for its own sake. Aesthetically and stylistically it's a train wreck. You read it for one reason, and one reason only - the story. The problem that I then have with Jordan is that the story was good for the first six books and then just got bogged down.
You are being extremely charitable when you say that he had a grand experiment that he poorly executed. I think he was like most other writers in the genre - he had a good idea that he thought he could cash in on. He knew he needed a big climactic finish at the end of each book but at a certain point he had thrown on so much unnecessary detail that he couldn't get the pieces in the right spot, and so for book after book he just kept fiddling with things but not moving it anywhere because he knew each new piece of crap he turned out would still sell. He wanted to finish the series, of course, but he was content to release sub-par work (even for him) because he was thinking about paying his bills. I don't blame him - every author without another job has an eye to the profit angle (Dumas certainly did, to take your example).
I just don't think that he had the grand vision. He was going to write a trilogy, and it just started expanding, and at a certain point it expanded beyond his ability to generate thrilling conclusions to each book.
As for this forum, I don't even want to think about how many websites there are out there for the Twilight series. Having a forum isn't an indication of writing talent in the least. I'm also sure Dan Brown has some fansites out there (and a fair number of them probably believe that he's publishing facts as fiction to avoid being murdered by the Federal Reserve).
I've bashed WoT a bit more than it perhaps deserves at times, but I generally agree with your assessment, with the caveats listed here.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
- 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM
3493 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer.
- 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM
1923 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured
- 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM
1592 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
- 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM
1412 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
- 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM
1497 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
- 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM
1912 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. *NM*
- 22/02/2011 02:39:20 PM
1069 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
- 22/02/2011 02:41:37 PM
1384 Views
That's possibly the best explanation of literary criticism I've ever seen.
- 23/02/2011 02:47:12 AM
1470 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
- 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM
1984 Views
- 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM
1984 Views
Re: I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
- 22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM
1618 Views
- 22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM
1618 Views
That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a channeler.
- 22/02/2011 11:30:52 PM
1479 Views
Re: That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a
- 23/02/2011 12:02:24 AM
1492 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ...
- 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM
1525 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
- 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM
2441 Views
I think it has more to do with limitations imposed by how the story was organized and edited.
- 22/02/2011 07:50:18 PM
1809 Views
That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
- 23/02/2011 02:15:12 AM
1585 Views
Re: That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
- 23/02/2011 11:02:14 AM
1533 Views
adam roberts reviews
- 23/02/2011 03:53:49 AM
1650 Views
And I suspect those who prefer the BS books are those who largely read WoT for the story. *NM*
- 23/02/2011 08:06:16 AM
922 Views
Oh GAWD!... not another pointer to Robert Adam's incoherant muckraking
- 24/02/2011 07:47:35 PM
1435 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
- 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM
1852 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
- 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM
1748 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know.
*NM*
- 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM
863 Views
*NM*
- 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM
863 Views
There are nine, actually...
- 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM
1702 Views
Lovecraft's Necronomicon was fictitious. If you want to count fanfiction, fine. *NM*
- 23/02/2011 12:38:07 AM
933 Views
Based on how poorly worded that response was, I'm not sure what to think of it. *NM*
- 23/02/2011 12:13:00 AM
942 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you.
- 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM
1357 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you.
- 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM
1519 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
- 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM
1464 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
- 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM
1444 Views
So wait, style is good?
- 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM
1737 Views
That depends...
- 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM
1649 Views
I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria.
- 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM
1524 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion
- 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM
1486 Views
If you don't mind me asking...
- 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM
1409 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
- 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM
1366 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
- 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM
1436 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
- 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM
1505 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
- 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM
1445 Views
...
- 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM
1339 Views
It is not a serious question.
- 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM
1478 Views
Is that so?
- 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM
1612 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan.
- 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM
1456 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him?
- 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM
1493 Views
You're conflating two things.
- 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM
1583 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere.
- 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM
1453 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity.
- 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM
1296 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM*
- 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM
841 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered.
- 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM
1486 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
- 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM
1593 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
- 25/02/2011 06:05:18 PM
1933 Views
I'm not wasting my time proving something to an internet moron and troll like you.
- 25/02/2011 07:36:19 PM
1335 Views
Ah yes, the wonderful "dissmiss the person who disagrees with me by insulting him tactic"
- 28/02/2011 02:30:35 PM
1332 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
- 26/02/2011 11:06:26 AM
1324 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly
- 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM
1643 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
- 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM
1347 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
- 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM
1526 Views
Of course people read for pleasure.
- 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM
1375 Views
Ok...
- 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM
1376 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument.
- 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM
1485 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"?
- 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM
1491 Views
Among living writers?
- 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM
1542 Views
My list would be similar...
- 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM
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That was a very good list.
- 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM
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Re: That was a very good list.
- 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM
1556 Views
Oh, and another question
- 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM
1227 Views
Re: Oh, and another question
- 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM
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I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM
1672 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM
1569 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM
1570 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM
1463 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM*
- 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM
954 Views

*NM*