I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
Iain83 Send a noteboard - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM
Almost all of the authors you've mentioned are in a very similar style - highly descriptive or even poetic prose, deep imagery, often long with many side-branchings and digressions. Now I'm not saying that these authors aren't great - but it's not the only mark of greatness. Consider the ability to set a scene in spare and tight prose, to bring characters to life vividly in a few words, to make the reader consider and rethink a social or moral issue - is doing these well not worthy of greatness? Take Harper Lee, for example - To Kill a Mockingbird is very different from those you mention, but excluding it feels like saying Picasso's Guernica is not great beacuse it's not a Monet.
[For the record, whilst I enjoy the Wheel of Time a lot, even in modern fantasy it's only one of my favourites rather than a clear winner and, good as he is, I wouldn't claim Jordan will go down through the ages].
I'll admit to having read only half of those you mention. I'm not argue against any of them (any book still admired centuries on is likely to be 'great' regardless of my personal taste). But those I'd personally rate of them are Marquez, Eco, Dante, Orwell, Huxley, Dumas and Swift. I disagree with you about Steinbeck and Hemingway - I think both are consistently excellent - but agree in not thinking much of Joyce or the Brontes. I've also never personally been able to see the appeal of Salinger, Rushdie, Cervantes or any Russian author with the exception of Solzhenitsyn - Tolstoy and Bulgakov were OK, but I struggled through; I never managed to finish any others.
My own list would look quite different and I think broader in style. From the top of my head, I'd push for:
[b]20th Century[/b]
- Vikram Seth: I'd say An Equal Music was even better than A Suitable Boy.
- C. P. Snow: Sparseness of prose that allows him to depict characters and their choices with great depth.
- Harper Lee: Incredibly powerfully written and accessibly moral call to arms.
- Steinbeck and Hemingway, as discussed aboe.
- A. S. Byatt: for the beauty of her language, both poetry and prose, in Possession.
- Herman Wouk: The Caine Mutiny is a masterpiece in claustrophobia; The Winds of War/War and Remembrance a similar mastery of the epic, whilst Marjorie Morningstar and A Hole in Texas show he can write well, if not to the same level, in radically different styles.
- Orwell: Again, very powerfully written and sparse prose.
- Tolkein: I can (and have) read Lord of the Rings over and and over just for the richness of the language and description.
- Solzhenitsyn: The First Circle and A Day in the Life of... are opposites in style and equally strong.
- Douglas Hofstadter: comes close to blurring the edge between fiction and non-fiction in his cross-disciplinary writing (Godel Escher Bach being the most well-known).
[b]19th Century[/b]
- Dumas: As you've described.
- Kipling: One who literary people love to hate, but his plots, characters and vividness of setting shine through - and he did it for children, adults, short stories, novels and poetry.
- Gaskell: Like the Brontes tried to do, but she succeeded.
- Austen: Genuinely funny and moving.
- Chesterton: For his prolificness and range of style from non-fiction books and essays, through popular detective to Orwellian dystopia.
- Verne: Not just his imagination, but for his characters.
- Conan Doyle: Each story is masterfully crafted.
(I find Dickens quite mixed)
[b]The very old[/b]
- Swift: as you described
- Ovid and Virgil: both superior to Homer in my opinion; genuinely enjoyable and gripping.
(I guess I've not read that much of the very old).
I'd welcome your views on these - particularly if you'd consider them 'not great', I'd ask why.
[For the record, whilst I enjoy the Wheel of Time a lot, even in modern fantasy it's only one of my favourites rather than a clear winner and, good as he is, I wouldn't claim Jordan will go down through the ages].
I'll admit to having read only half of those you mention. I'm not argue against any of them (any book still admired centuries on is likely to be 'great' regardless of my personal taste). But those I'd personally rate of them are Marquez, Eco, Dante, Orwell, Huxley, Dumas and Swift. I disagree with you about Steinbeck and Hemingway - I think both are consistently excellent - but agree in not thinking much of Joyce or the Brontes. I've also never personally been able to see the appeal of Salinger, Rushdie, Cervantes or any Russian author with the exception of Solzhenitsyn - Tolstoy and Bulgakov were OK, but I struggled through; I never managed to finish any others.
My own list would look quite different and I think broader in style. From the top of my head, I'd push for:
[b]20th Century[/b]
- Vikram Seth: I'd say An Equal Music was even better than A Suitable Boy.
- C. P. Snow: Sparseness of prose that allows him to depict characters and their choices with great depth.
- Harper Lee: Incredibly powerfully written and accessibly moral call to arms.
- Steinbeck and Hemingway, as discussed aboe.
- A. S. Byatt: for the beauty of her language, both poetry and prose, in Possession.
- Herman Wouk: The Caine Mutiny is a masterpiece in claustrophobia; The Winds of War/War and Remembrance a similar mastery of the epic, whilst Marjorie Morningstar and A Hole in Texas show he can write well, if not to the same level, in radically different styles.
- Orwell: Again, very powerfully written and sparse prose.
- Tolkein: I can (and have) read Lord of the Rings over and and over just for the richness of the language and description.
- Solzhenitsyn: The First Circle and A Day in the Life of... are opposites in style and equally strong.
- Douglas Hofstadter: comes close to blurring the edge between fiction and non-fiction in his cross-disciplinary writing (Godel Escher Bach being the most well-known).
[b]19th Century[/b]
- Dumas: As you've described.
- Kipling: One who literary people love to hate, but his plots, characters and vividness of setting shine through - and he did it for children, adults, short stories, novels and poetry.
- Gaskell: Like the Brontes tried to do, but she succeeded.
- Austen: Genuinely funny and moving.
- Chesterton: For his prolificness and range of style from non-fiction books and essays, through popular detective to Orwellian dystopia.
- Verne: Not just his imagination, but for his characters.
- Conan Doyle: Each story is masterfully crafted.
(I find Dickens quite mixed)
[b]The very old[/b]
- Swift: as you described
- Ovid and Virgil: both superior to Homer in my opinion; genuinely enjoyable and gripping.
(I guess I've not read that much of the very old).
I'd welcome your views on these - particularly if you'd consider them 'not great', I'd ask why.
Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
- 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM
3554 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer.
- 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM
1981 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured
- 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM
1652 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
- 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM
1484 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
- 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM
1557 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
- 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM
1970 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. *NM*
- 22/02/2011 02:39:20 PM
1133 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
- 22/02/2011 02:41:37 PM
1484 Views
That's possibly the best explanation of literary criticism I've ever seen.
- 23/02/2011 02:47:12 AM
1531 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
- 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM
2053 Views
- 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM
2053 Views
Re: I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
- 22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM
1683 Views
- 22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM
1683 Views
That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a channeler.
- 22/02/2011 11:30:52 PM
1542 Views
Re: That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a
- 23/02/2011 12:02:24 AM
1557 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ...
- 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM
1593 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
- 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM
2608 Views
I think it has more to do with limitations imposed by how the story was organized and edited.
- 22/02/2011 07:50:18 PM
1881 Views
That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
- 23/02/2011 02:15:12 AM
1652 Views
Re: That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
- 23/02/2011 11:02:14 AM
1598 Views
adam roberts reviews
- 23/02/2011 03:53:49 AM
1753 Views
And I suspect those who prefer the BS books are those who largely read WoT for the story. *NM*
- 23/02/2011 08:06:16 AM
997 Views
Oh GAWD!... not another pointer to Robert Adam's incoherant muckraking
- 24/02/2011 07:47:35 PM
1494 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
- 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM
1985 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
- 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM
1836 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know.
*NM*
- 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM
926 Views
*NM*
- 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM
926 Views
There are nine, actually...
- 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM
1781 Views
Lovecraft's Necronomicon was fictitious. If you want to count fanfiction, fine. *NM*
- 23/02/2011 12:38:07 AM
994 Views
Based on how poorly worded that response was, I'm not sure what to think of it. *NM*
- 23/02/2011 12:13:00 AM
1001 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you.
- 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM
1426 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you.
- 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM
1580 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
- 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM
1527 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
- 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM
1569 Views
So wait, style is good?
- 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM
1811 Views
That depends...
- 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM
1711 Views
I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria.
- 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM
1588 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion
- 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM
1545 Views
If you don't mind me asking...
- 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM
1526 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
- 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM
1458 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
- 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM
1504 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
- 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM
1571 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
- 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM
1516 Views
...
- 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM
1416 Views
It is not a serious question.
- 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM
1603 Views
Is that so?
- 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM
1769 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan.
- 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM
1525 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him?
- 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM
1555 Views
You're conflating two things.
- 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM
1709 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere.
- 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM
1560 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity.
- 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM
1383 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM*
- 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM
876 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered.
- 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM
1613 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
- 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM
1699 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
- 25/02/2011 06:05:18 PM
1993 Views
I'm not wasting my time proving something to an internet moron and troll like you.
- 25/02/2011 07:36:19 PM
1424 Views
Ah yes, the wonderful "dissmiss the person who disagrees with me by insulting him tactic"
- 28/02/2011 02:30:35 PM
1405 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
- 26/02/2011 11:06:26 AM
1390 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly
- 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM
1774 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
- 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM
1416 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
- 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM
1584 Views
Of course people read for pleasure.
- 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM
1466 Views
Ok...
- 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM
1467 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument.
- 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM
1587 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"?
- 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM
1579 Views
Among living writers?
- 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM
1650 Views
My list would be similar...
- 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM
1744 Views
That was a very good list.
- 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM
1678 Views
Re: That was a very good list.
- 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM
1646 Views
Oh, and another question
- 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM
1288 Views
Re: Oh, and another question
- 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM
1594 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM
1741 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM
1652 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM
1627 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
- 03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM
1562 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM*
- 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM
1018 Views

*NM*