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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA Send a noteboard - 03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM
I can see what you're getting at, but it's a distinction that I don't accept. Although I agree there are many popular books that all one asks from is enjoyment (e.g. Dan Brown, JK Rowling, John Buchan, LM Montgomery), I don't agree that being popular renders a book/author ineligble for the classification of 'great' either.


You haven't read my post attentively then, as I've mentionned how Hugo is a great popular writer (ie: he wrote great stories) and is also widely recognized as a great writer (his prose, his works have recognized artistic value).

I make the distinction (and it's a traditional disctinction, by the way - not my own) between great popular writers and great writers because if you try to judge their works with the same criterias, most of the great popular writers will end up at the bottom of the list because of the lack of artistic/aesthethic value of their writing, unless you narrow your analysis to specific craft aspects, like storytelling, characters etc. - which is a lot about purely subjective notions, such as how fun the story is, or how much you like the characters.

You can compare the craftsmanship of J.K. Rowling and Jane Austen in storytelling, but if you try to compare their Art of writing, this is not even close to a contest (which is why I find stupid to look at most popular work with the "great writing" critical grid. As far as I know, Rowling has no artistic intent with her prose - it's pointless to look at her work from this angle (as one would for a "great writer" or an author with artistic ambitions, only to arrive at the foregone conclusion that her prose has little artistic value and use that to bash her gratuitously.


Are great popular writers like Rowling, Doyle, Dumas etc. as valuable and significant culturally as the great writers is not a debate I even got into and that I leave to others like you who try to put all writing in the same bag as I don't personally care - I enjoy reading both good popular literature - great stories - and the great writers, sometimes for the same reasons (a lot of great writers were also great storytellers...), more often for fairly different reasons and I can admire craftsmanship and art in literature both (I just can see the difference between the two). I merely touched on the artistic differences that exist between popular literature and great literature. I also don't equate the vague category of "the classics" with great literature. Tons of books that became classics are recognized as such for their ideas rather than their form.
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Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? newyorkersedai - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3497 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. darius_sedai - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 1927 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1596 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1417 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1500 Views
Oh, it really depends. Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 1284 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 961 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. RabidWombat - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 1912 Views
Thank you. Nargs - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1608 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. *NM* Gerbeaud - 22/02/2011 02:39:20 PM 1069 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. Gerbeaud - 22/02/2011 02:41:37 PM 1386 Views
Well Said! Evil_Monkey - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1641 Views
That's possibly the best explanation of literary criticism I've ever seen. The Count - 23/02/2011 02:47:12 AM 1472 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 1986 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... Nargs - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1670 Views
Not particularly. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1813 Views
Agreed. Tom - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1452 Views
Re: I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM 1622 Views
That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a channeler. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 11:30:52 PM 1482 Views
Re: That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 12:02:24 AM 1496 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... Velveti - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1528 Views
Amen *NM* Nargs - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 904 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? DomA - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 2445 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. RabidWombat - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1584 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol Onarishma - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1557 Views
I think it has more to do with limitations imposed by how the story was organized and edited. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/02/2011 07:50:18 PM 1812 Views
That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks newyorkersedai - 23/02/2011 02:15:12 AM 1588 Views
Re: That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 11:02:14 AM 1533 Views
adam roberts reviews uglycat - 23/02/2011 03:53:49 AM 1650 Views
And I suspect those who prefer the BS books are those who largely read WoT for the story. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:06:16 AM 922 Views
Oh GAWD!... not another pointer to Robert Adam's incoherant muckraking HyogaRott - 24/02/2011 07:47:35 PM 1439 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. Tom - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 1854 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1751 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 863 Views
There are nine, actually... Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1705 Views
Lovecraft's Necronomicon was fictitious. If you want to count fanfiction, fine. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 12:38:07 AM 934 Views
Based on how poorly worded that response was, I'm not sure what to think of it. *NM* Tom - 23/02/2011 12:13:00 AM 942 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. Stephen - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 1359 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1522 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book Stephen - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1468 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 1446 Views
So wait, style is good? Stephen - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1739 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 1354 Views
I'm not trolling Stephen - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1373 Views
That depends... DomA - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1653 Views
I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria. Tom - 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM 1527 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion RabidWombat - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1488 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion DomA - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1457 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1590 Views
Not for quality of writing. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1457 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* HyogaRott - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 948 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? newyorkersedai - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1516 Views
If you don't mind me asking... Fanatic-Templar - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 1410 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... DomA - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1385 Views
I still don't get it. Fanatic-Templar - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 1367 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 1404 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 1368 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1437 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. Tom - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1507 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1447 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 915 Views
... Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 1343 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? fionwe1987 - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 1247 Views
It is not a serious question. Tom - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1481 Views
How so? fionwe1987 - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1546 Views
I have every right to use that tone. Tom - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1424 Views
Is that so? Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1615 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. Tom - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1456 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1495 Views
You're conflating two things. Tom - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1587 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. Fanatic-Templar - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 1457 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* Nargs - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 871 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. Tom - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 1298 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 842 Views
Glad to hear that. Tom - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 1369 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 873 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. HyogaRott - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 1489 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. Tom - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1595 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. HyogaRott - 25/02/2011 06:05:18 PM 1935 Views
I'm not wasting my time proving something to an internet moron and troll like you. Tom - 25/02/2011 07:36:19 PM 1337 Views
Ah yes, the wonderful "dissmiss the person who disagrees with me by insulting him tactic" HyogaRott - 28/02/2011 02:30:35 PM 1336 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. Lo'oris - 26/02/2011 11:06:26 AM 1325 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 787 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 812 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* HyogaRott - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 933 Views
Re: ... Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1421 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. newyorkersedai - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1498 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 1383 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly GarethBryne - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1645 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 1351 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? GarethBryne - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1530 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 1375 Views
Ok... Nargs - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 1378 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. Ghavrel - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1488 Views
*NM* Tom - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 841 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. Nargs - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 1297 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? VTHokie - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1493 Views
Among living writers? Tom - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1545 Views
No Rushdie? fionwe1987 - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 1354 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. Tom - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 1346 Views
My list would be similar... DomA - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1652 Views
That was a very good list. Tom - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1568 Views
Re: That was a very good list. DomA - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1556 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. Tom - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 1421 Views
Oh, and another question Tom - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 1230 Views
Re: Oh, and another question DomA - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1505 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... Tom - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 1287 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... DomA - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1557 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' Iain83 - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1676 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? Tom - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1494 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? Iain83 - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1617 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1573 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' Iain83 - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1573 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: Nargs - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1688 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA - 03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM 1465 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* Marshall - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 955 Views
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