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Well... that elicited quite a reaction. Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 28/09/2009 06:25:52 AM
More accurately, violent disgust.

So, Elaida is a power-obsessed despot. That's nothing new. But she used to be a formidable power-obsessed despot. Where is your knitting or your ivory figurines, Elaida? When she sent Alviarin crying to Mesaana in Crossroads of Twilight (and some people say nothing happened in that book...) I figured, 'this is what happens when you mess with this power-obsessed despot'. Elaida was a tyrannical egotist, but she got things done. Shrieking like a caricature over spilled soup on her carpet? Not impressive.

Sigh. Good old Pedron Niall. At least he died before we learned that he was a pedophile with erectile dysfunction or something equally character ruining. He died figuring out that the Seanchan were a threat, without having to meet them first, which I think is unique in the series thus far, isn't it?

I guess if you can't make Egwene impressive, you can make her enemies so ridiculous one can't help but side with her. Also, I reckon this puts an end to any possibility that Elaida will finish this series in a position above that of scullery maid, unfortunately.

Which brings me to my second point. In the last few years, and with Knife of Dreams leaving me not especially resentful towards the girl (don't get me wrong, the whole 'You do not break when you are spanked? Surely you must be our Amyrlin!' thing was ridiculous enough, but not directly Egwene's fault) I thought I was over this Egwene-hate thing, but this chapter just brought it back in spades.

Were we the ones who pulled down a sitting Amyrlin?

I don't really know what to say. What is your purpose here, Egwene? Are you saying you support Elaida's continued reign?

Were we the ones who turned Warder against Warder?

I'll assume one of the sides was yours? The one that was leading an attack to rescue the Stilled Amyrlin and therefore initiated the hostilities?

Were we the ones who failed to contain the Dragon Reborn?

Can someone remind me what Siuan was accused of that resulted in her being deposed and Stilled?

The false Amyrlin just turned back to her soup, smiling to herself, no doubt contemplating a fourth Oath to demand obedience. Couldn't she see how that would undermine the Tower itself? It would transform the Amyrlin from a leader to a despot.

Go on.

Explain to us how using magical compulsion to enforce obedience in your subjects is wrong.

No morning of victory for Elaida, I take it?

It has been a while since I last felt this particular bewildered frustration.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
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Your thoughts about TGS - chapter 2 *spoilers* - 24/09/2009 03:17:07 PM 8354 Views
Mind-numbingly boring... - 24/09/2009 04:22:52 PM 2843 Views
I thought it was excellent *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:32:05 PM 1543 Views
Only for someone who can't read between the lines. - 24/09/2009 07:40:18 PM 2678 Views
I adored it. *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:37:38 PM 1407 Views
Agreed, but only because of the incredibly slow audio reading. FORTY-FIVE minutes for ONE chapter!!! *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:08:27 AM 1441 Views
EVERY Chapter in the entire series is read that way. - 25/09/2009 01:40:07 PM 2332 Views
Yup, they're a lot of fun to listen to. - 26/09/2009 08:26:52 PM 2254 Views
Agreed. As for the speed issue... - 28/09/2009 02:11:13 PM 2184 Views
Cannoli’s journal of listening to “The Nature of Pain.” - 28/09/2009 01:03:35 PM 2815 Views
Chapter summary - 24/09/2009 04:31:01 PM 2912 Views
sounds like its RJs work from the dialogue *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:33:57 PM 1335 Views
I agree - I'm certain it was RJ *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:36:12 PM 1582 Views
Agreed. It was RJ through and through. *NM* - 24/09/2009 04:36:13 PM 1377 Views
+1 - 25/09/2009 06:03:44 AM 2349 Views
I should disagree - 26/09/2009 10:34:58 PM 2479 Views
Jordan left tons of background info in notes - 27/09/2009 07:36:11 PM 2396 Views
Re: Chapter summary - 24/09/2009 06:50:36 PM 2478 Views
Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower? - 24/09/2009 04:44:28 PM 2505 Views
Well, she's replaced everything else in her life with the Tower. - 24/09/2009 04:47:05 PM 2517 Views
I always thought it was the small town thing - 24/09/2009 04:50:19 PM 2482 Views
Could it be that Fain could have contaminated her in tFOH? - 24/09/2009 04:51:56 PM 2418 Views
Can Fain do that? - 24/09/2009 04:53:57 PM 2373 Views
No he can't (couldn't) - 24/09/2009 05:02:21 PM 2575 Views
So you're saying that an antagonist is being portrayed as idiotic in this series? No way! - 24/09/2009 04:58:15 PM 2473 Views
I this case, I'm quite forgiving - 24/09/2009 05:36:59 PM 2382 Views
What has Gawyn done that demonstrates stupidity? - 28/09/2009 05:21:39 AM 2355 Views
Ambitious people are like that - 24/09/2009 05:08:27 PM 2438 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me where Egwene developed this immense love for the Tower? - 24/09/2009 06:01:46 PM 2434 Views
I don't think its necessarily for the tower itself - 24/09/2009 08:30:15 PM 2368 Views
This made my morning happy. - 24/09/2009 04:45:08 PM 2407 Views
I think it's different. - 24/09/2009 05:51:11 PM 2538 Views
True. - 24/09/2009 07:21:36 PM 2510 Views
Re: True. - 24/09/2009 07:30:06 PM 2364 Views
Re: I think it's different. - 25/09/2009 03:24:22 AM 2419 Views
There's still a difference... - 25/09/2009 04:28:55 AM 2278 Views
Re: There's still a difference... - 26/09/2009 12:30:28 PM 2303 Views
But... - 26/09/2009 03:44:31 PM 2298 Views
Re: But... - 26/09/2009 04:08:35 PM 2283 Views
She could have not bungled up... - 26/09/2009 05:17:02 PM 2116 Views
In PoD, it is revealed that Alviarin makes Elaida swear obedience to her. - 26/09/2009 07:48:01 PM 2528 Views
he's saying that. - 26/09/2009 10:12:16 PM 2191 Views
She also deposes Alviarin... - 26/09/2009 10:47:07 PM 2261 Views
Egwene matured a bit, BUT - 24/09/2009 04:51:53 PM 2354 Views
Ever had rancid oil? - 01/10/2009 08:42:59 PM 3052 Views
Is Alviarin finished? - 24/09/2009 04:52:31 PM 2459 Views
Two possibilities that come to mind - 24/09/2009 05:11:41 PM 2439 Views
Or - 24/09/2009 05:45:36 PM 2529 Views
Best idea ^ *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:27:15 PM 1707 Views
Egwene knows about the letter, and soon the BA hunters will too. - 24/09/2009 07:46:34 PM 2374 Views
She's got to be 'raised' to the shawl first, to take the 4 oaths. - 24/09/2009 10:33:42 PM 2360 Views
No they don't - 24/09/2009 11:03:09 PM 2234 Views
Oh, I thought you meant Elaida's new obedience oath *NM* - 25/09/2009 09:15:48 AM 1350 Views
Her part will probably be... - 24/09/2009 06:06:08 PM 2423 Views
I think her mission has changed. - 24/09/2009 06:08:11 PM 2186 Views
Re: Is Alviarin finished? - 24/09/2009 09:08:29 PM 2047 Views
Good 1st chapter of Egwene's plotline! - 24/09/2009 05:15:32 PM 2411 Views
Painful to listen to - 24/09/2009 05:33:22 PM 2426 Views
Not finished it yet - 24/09/2009 05:42:18 PM 2514 Views
WHITE! - 24/09/2009 06:20:43 PM 2387 Views
Not White! (spoilers) And Seanchan attack idea. - 28/09/2009 02:26:06 AM 2491 Views
Yes, Mesaana's plain white dress seems somewhat peculiar - 24/09/2009 06:43:45 PM 2495 Views
But what if she has no choice but to stay? - 24/09/2009 08:02:01 PM 2163 Views
Are you kidding? Moridin would kill her - 24/09/2009 10:50:34 PM 2241 Views
She doesn't.. - 25/09/2009 06:36:22 AM 2214 Views
If this is true, it could be a ploy - 25/09/2009 03:06:45 AM 2361 Views
Plus, it avoids getting tangled in the Black Ajah hunt - 25/09/2009 03:11:38 AM 2139 Views
I struggle to think of Mesaana as a novice - 25/09/2009 05:16:57 AM 2399 Views
I disagree - 25/09/2009 11:08:34 AM 2460 Views
nice idea *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:29:56 PM 1305 Views
I liked it *Spoilers* - 24/09/2009 05:49:41 PM 2336 Views
I think... - 24/09/2009 07:01:42 PM 2512 Views
Re: I think... - 24/09/2009 07:33:34 PM 2122 Views
Re: I think... - 24/09/2009 08:00:09 PM 2494 Views
Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well? - 24/09/2009 08:07:38 PM 2254 Views
Re: Wasn't there a high turnover in War of Power as well? - 25/09/2009 03:43:22 PM 2350 Views
Chosen have been mindtrapped before - 25/09/2009 04:32:18 PM 1855 Views
Re: I think... - 25/09/2009 07:25:34 PM 2285 Views
Surely worse happened in the War of Power though before the seals were laid - 24/09/2009 07:58:54 PM 2325 Views
I was totally caught off guard! - 24/09/2009 05:50:39 PM 2340 Views
I all excited! - 24/09/2009 06:26:23 PM 2261 Views
Yay - 24/09/2009 07:00:41 PM 2523 Views
Egwene is arrogant as ever...thinking Rand can't possibly get along without guidance *NM* - 24/09/2009 08:25:24 PM 1533 Views
is she wrong? - 24/09/2009 08:34:44 PM 2400 Views
The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. Two afterthouts as edits - 24/09/2009 08:43:38 PM 2545 Views
Re: The problem is that Egwene isn't honest with herself. - 24/09/2009 08:46:09 PM 2360 Views
I'm sure Moridin knows how to too - 27/09/2009 03:59:49 PM 2241 Views
Re: is she wrong? - 25/09/2009 03:38:09 AM 2455 Views
Re: is she wrong? - 25/09/2009 04:30:28 AM 2245 Views
You're totally wrong - 25/09/2009 02:23:27 PM 2407 Views
Re: You're totally wrong - 25/09/2009 03:32:22 PM 2326 Views
but she was absolutely essential in the successful completion - 29/09/2009 02:55:13 PM 2618 Views
I like Egwene but I didn't like her statement - 25/09/2009 05:03:33 AM 2539 Views
I agree, and one more reason why I agree - 25/09/2009 02:27:44 PM 2386 Views
I disagree in some ways - 25/09/2009 03:23:35 PM 2154 Views
I agree, and that is Rand's problem in the first place. - 25/09/2009 07:27:22 PM 2318 Views
Rand should invoke the 'Law of War' against the DO - 25/09/2009 06:19:56 AM 2296 Views
She wants part of the glory. *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:31:47 AM 1280 Views
What will happen first: black ajah hunt ends or Seanchan attack the WT? - 24/09/2009 08:38:43 PM 2491 Views
I can never decide what I think will happen - 24/09/2009 08:44:03 PM 2409 Views
Re: I can never decide what I think will happen - 24/09/2009 09:25:18 PM 2313 Views
I disagree, the Rebels are better protected - 24/09/2009 09:36:19 PM 2375 Views
I agree with you. Rebels are harder to take (rebels have Asha'man too) *NM* - 24/09/2009 09:59:10 PM 1341 Views
So do the Tower Reds, only the Seanchan don't know that yet... - 25/09/2009 04:46:17 AM 2194 Views
Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property" - 29/09/2009 03:09:28 PM 2221 Views
Re: Yet according to one of Min's visions, Carlinya gets made "property" - 29/09/2009 03:23:45 PM 2333 Views
OK, I didn't remember the details correctly - 29/09/2009 03:38:16 PM 2305 Views
Re: OK, I didn't remember the details correctly - 29/09/2009 04:11:22 PM 2400 Views
Harnan's tattoo is of a hawk, not a raven - 29/09/2009 04:37:27 PM 2415 Views
Oops. Then no other interpretations. - 29/09/2009 04:51:07 PM 2305 Views
Potential for conflicting prophecies? - 26/09/2009 08:49:04 PM 2125 Views
no.. - 26/09/2009 09:12:52 PM 2253 Views
The title of book 13... - 24/09/2009 09:19:17 PM 2233 Views
Swing and a miss. - 24/09/2009 10:33:46 PM 2428 Views
As said - 25/09/2009 06:37:46 AM 2157 Views
Or maybe the fortress in the blight? - 25/09/2009 12:51:05 PM 2241 Views
Yes, those Towers... - 25/09/2009 03:10:40 PM 2323 Views
Seems unlikely to me. - 25/09/2009 01:44:27 PM 2346 Views
Yeah, that's possible. - 25/09/2009 03:11:33 PM 2294 Views
Egwene's surprising decision... - 25/09/2009 08:38:51 PM 2182 Views
I think it's an exaggeration - 25/09/2009 09:01:22 PM 2333 Views
Re: Egwene's surprising decision... - 26/09/2009 12:58:51 AM 2329 Views
The Seanchan attack will happen first - 24/09/2009 10:47:50 PM 2191 Views
I think Egwene is building up an immunity to forkroot. *NM* - 25/09/2009 02:03:58 AM 1357 Views
I'm kinda hoping Mesaana hands them all in a basket to Moridin. - 25/09/2009 02:51:55 AM 2103 Views
Egwene's respect reminds me of Niall's comment to Morgase - 25/09/2009 03:39:19 AM 2218 Views
Both at once, I don't think it will be a neat A then B, or B then A - 25/09/2009 03:53:30 AM 2270 Views
How would they possibly hear of Turan in Arad Doman? - 25/09/2009 02:34:34 PM 2284 Views
Raken - they are used as messengers - 25/09/2009 02:43:29 PM 2280 Views
Egwene... surprised me. It was great. - 24/09/2009 08:49:36 PM 2175 Views
I didn't catch any hints as to Mesaana's identity. Were there any? - 24/09/2009 08:51:23 PM 2219 Views
Katerine is Black Ajah - 24/09/2009 10:48:14 PM 2281 Views
Also... this makes me miss RJ even more - 24/09/2009 08:52:52 PM 2540 Views
I experienced just the opposite - 25/09/2009 06:40:53 AM 2391 Views
Totally disagree - 25/09/2009 06:58:36 AM 2194 Views
This was a truely beautiful chapter *NM* - 24/09/2009 10:22:48 PM 1324 Views
Really? - 24/09/2009 11:37:59 PM 2218 Views
Daaayyum - when did Elaida become such a baller/shot caller? - 24/09/2009 11:23:41 PM 2343 Views
I can't wait to actually read the chapter-- I thought it was very well written *NM* - 25/09/2009 12:18:48 AM 1308 Views
In regards to Alviarin. - 25/09/2009 01:32:09 AM 2363 Views
Could Elaida pass a 4th Oath? - 25/09/2009 05:13:08 AM 2301 Views
The Black Ajah would never stand for it, even if the other sisters would - 25/09/2009 06:38:19 AM 2456 Views
And therein lies Elaida's genius... - 25/09/2009 07:08:48 PM 2430 Views
Fain as the source of much of the Tower's woes - 25/09/2009 05:30:49 AM 2248 Views
No one else thinks Fain has had any influence on Elaida's erratic behavior? *NM* - 25/09/2009 05:32:05 PM 1362 Views
I agree. Fain is affecting her, for certain. NT *NM* - 28/09/2009 02:30:45 AM 1410 Views
What about Mesaana? - 25/09/2009 06:03:41 PM 2144 Views
Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:34:35 PM 2305 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:38:39 PM 2273 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 03:40:32 PM 2291 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 04:16:16 PM 2286 Views
We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:18:21 PM 2441 Views
Re: We already saw Mat confront Egwene in Salidar. What more - 25/09/2009 04:37:04 PM 2312 Views
That's not his argument though - 25/09/2009 04:34:35 PM 2151 Views
Ah okay. - 25/09/2009 04:36:00 PM 2258 Views
She seemed okay with it in KoD - 25/09/2009 04:38:53 PM 2365 Views
I think... - 25/09/2009 03:47:26 PM 2363 Views
Nice ideas! *NM* - 25/09/2009 03:51:01 PM 2028 Views
That is really good idea - 25/09/2009 08:12:34 PM 2491 Views
Though... - 26/09/2009 01:32:18 PM 2335 Views
Re: Mat vs Egwene - 25/09/2009 06:15:56 PM 2128 Views
egwene and elaida's 4th oath - 25/09/2009 03:51:36 PM 2291 Views
Egwene's Hypocrisy here is astounding: - 29/09/2009 03:39:25 AM 2291 Views
Egwene and Mesaana - 25/09/2009 06:07:37 PM 2333 Views
Come now...even though Mesaana is whimpy for a Forsaken, she would wipe the floor with Egwene... - 25/09/2009 06:10:13 PM 2336 Views
Alright, I *may* have overlooked that significant point. - 25/09/2009 06:21:09 PM 2170 Views
Agreed - 26/09/2009 06:36:01 AM 2238 Views
Depends on where the battle takes place. TAR = Egwene win. - 02/10/2009 06:10:07 PM 2325 Views
Egwene would need to lead a circle or use an angreal to beat her. *NM* - 25/09/2009 06:31:42 PM 1331 Views
Unless it was based on willpower as in a conflict within Tel'Aran'Rhiod - 25/09/2009 07:19:50 PM 2258 Views
Humph. - 26/09/2009 03:27:09 AM 2198 Views
She was overconfident - 26/09/2009 03:24:51 PM 2275 Views
A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:31:36 PM 2511 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 02:50:49 PM 2240 Views
Re: A lie by Elaida? - 27/09/2009 03:01:06 PM 2243 Views
I don't think it covers things like that - 27/09/2009 04:10:05 PM 2231 Views
She believes what she said *NM* - 28/09/2009 04:51:52 AM 1299 Views
Remember, perspective. - 29/09/2009 12:14:59 AM 2129 Views
It might well be true - 29/09/2009 12:38:20 AM 2270 Views
Well... that elicited quite a reaction. - 28/09/2009 06:25:52 AM 2073 Views
I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 05:27:43 PM 2316 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 06:42:56 PM 2085 Views
Re: I had many of those same thoughts. - 28/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 2216 Views
I've just learned to skip any female POV's written by RJ - 29/09/2009 04:38:45 AM 2260 Views
Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 05:30:44 AM 2283 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 29/09/2009 06:26:17 AM 2290 Views
Ridiculous - 30/09/2009 12:34:07 AM 2146 Views
Very. - 30/09/2009 02:40:07 AM 2259 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 03:00:01 AM 2271 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 30/09/2009 04:32:14 AM 2281 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 03:23:21 AM 2241 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 01/10/2009 04:51:14 AM 2230 Views
Re: Hmmm.... - 03/10/2009 01:57:24 PM 2543 Views
That's Mesaana's purpose actually *NM* - 06/11/2009 07:03:12 AM 1294 Views
Elaida, Formidable? - 29/09/2009 11:48:04 PM 2407 Views
How do you figure? - 30/09/2009 12:15:47 AM 2030 Views
Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 12:35:07 AM 2300 Views
Re: Aside from successfuly orchastrate the coup what has she done? - 30/09/2009 02:29:37 AM 2167 Views
Broke the Black Ajah's hold on the Amyrlin seat??????? - 30/09/2009 06:09:08 PM 2125 Views
Ignore *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:20:12 PM 1269 Views
Oh yeah, and... - 29/09/2009 04:22:57 AM 2433 Views
Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:04:35 AM 2358 Views
Re: Egwene in this chapter... - 29/09/2009 05:59:33 AM 2491 Views
Author thoughts - Audiobook versus reading - 29/09/2009 05:30:39 AM 2258 Views
Yes, I've felt very much the same *NM* - 29/09/2009 12:52:52 PM 1433 Views
A lot of that is the narrator - 29/09/2009 04:36:47 PM 2296 Views
The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:21:24 PM 2373 Views
Good point! *NM* - 30/09/2009 06:26:51 PM 1339 Views
Re: The Dark One's Touch - 30/09/2009 06:44:53 PM 2123 Views
What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:11:18 PM 2079 Views
Re: What about the person who has the ter'angreal dagger? - 30/09/2009 07:17:06 PM 2074 Views
The Irony of Elaida - 30/09/2009 11:10:08 PM 2289 Views
LOL, I agree. - 01/10/2009 02:47:18 AM 2236 Views

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