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Rand the psycho? Datakim Send a noteboard - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM
I was wondering something.

In TGS, Rand balefires Graendals entire palace, killing not just her(probably) but also everyone who serves her. He also burns all those threads backwards a bit. During this event, both Min and Nynaeve are absolutely horrified at what Rand just did. Nynaeve actually is so disturbed that she actually goes to Cadsuane and becomes all submissive in the hope that Cadsuane will change the course Rand has taken. Surely what Rand did was a horrific evil on a grand scale. A true atrocity.

Or is it?

I was thinking about this and it occurred to me to wonder why exactly are Min and Nynaeve so absolutely horrified. Why is Rand so convinced that he has damned himself. Why does Min think that what happened must be destroying Rand inside. I mean think about it, what actually happened there?

We KNOW from several sources (LTT, the boy, forsaken scenes) that all those people in the fortress other than Graendal were just mindless drones. Min and Nynaeve know it too since Rand explains it to them. They were essentially already dead. Yes, they might have been moving around, their lungs breathing, their hearts pumping. But we can say the same for that little girl Rand tried to resurrect with Callandor. Is it then murder when Rand pulled back his flows and let the girls body die?

Without awareness and free will, without intelligence and sentience, things which Graendal has taken away from them, can the people in the palace truly be said to be alive?

And if they cannot, does that not mean that the ONLY person that was truly ALIVE in that place was Graendal herself? A monster by any measure. So really, is what Rand did evil at all? Did any innocent civilian actually die?

Now yes, Rand does use balefire and we know its dangerous. Infact, perhaps that is the real reason for the horror that Min and Nynaeve feel. But really does that make sense either? How many people were in that palace? A hundred? Two? Lets go for broke and say Graendal had three hundred people in his palace. Now we know that Rand knows the damage balefire causes, he does not yet want to destroy the pattern at this point so we can assume that he regulated the amount of power used to only burn the people back as little as possible. Let's say 15 minutes.

Now you could argue that 15 minutes is too little since Rand used the Choedan Kal itself to do the job. However I would argue that the reason he had to use the CK was to erase the entire palace at once and not to burn the people back days or weeks. Remember that at this point Rand still wants to save the pattern so he would not do this.

So we have 300 people balefired with each one burned back in time 15 minutes. This does produce a reaction. Min describes it as reality warping around them. Perhaps this then is the atrocity here. Rand actually damages the pattern itself, endangering everything. He comes very close to destroying the world here.

Or does he?

If all it took to damage the pattern in a way that was in any way significant was to balefire 300 people back 15 minutes, then why has Moridin not done that? I mean he could just travel to some obscure village or town and start blasting away. Given how strong we know Moridin is, he could easily balefire 300 people. Heck, there are a lot of villages so if Moridin wanted he could probably balefire more than 300 people easily. In a few weeks he could probably balefire 3000. Or more! And each one more than 15 minutes. And these would be people who would actually be alive and sentient. With more active threads than the drones in Graendals palace.

We know why the rest of the forsaken don't do this. They want to rule and as such don't want the pattern to unravel. But we KNOW that Moridin is different. During the dream-meet he openly admits that the DO is going to unmake the pattern, that he knows it and that he thinks this is a really good thing.

It seems to me than that when we take the fact that Moridin does not do this together with other facts such as Rands comment that he has seen many thousands burned from the pattern together with the fact that apparently during the War of power, balefire was used on entire cities, it seems to me that erasing 300 drones who probably had very little influence on anything, and one forsaken, would do very little real damage to the pattern. To have a significant effect would probably require tens of thousands of people balefired or Moridin would constantly be out there secretly balefiring people as fast as he could.

Nothing else makes sense to me. Yes, Min does have a reaction that is written as pretty freaky but we have nothing to compare this reaction to. It is entirely subjective to her. For all we know this is actually the pattern going "Meh!" because what Rand did was utterly insignificant.

So really, why is it that Min and Nynaeve are so horrified? What was so terrible about what Rand did? It may not exactly be a thing of sunshine and little dancing kittens but I would say that many things Rand has done before have actually been worse. Rand was correct to do what he did to get rid of Graendal and Min and Nynaeve are just being fools.

I don't deny that Rand does go psycho in TGS, and that many of the things such as threatening to rain fire on the borderlanders show that he has totally lost it. But is this one specific act, balefiring Graendals palace, truly as wrong as it is suggested? I think not.
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1704 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 1109 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 1105 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1132 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 1031 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 929 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 1046 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 954 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 943 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 883 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 896 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 849 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 884 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 873 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 1003 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 906 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 981 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 909 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 966 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 902 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 961 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 871 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 992 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 1001 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 942 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 1029 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 836 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 980 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 477 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 909 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 922 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 874 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 493 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 845 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 487 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 865 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 833 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 980 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 904 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 930 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 930 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 920 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 917 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 961 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 869 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 984 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 818 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 923 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 884 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 910 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 919 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 858 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 939 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 877 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 811 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 978 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 926 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 925 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 876 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 909 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 820 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 837 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 1003 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 839 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 842 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 929 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 896 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 908 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 967 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 832 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 858 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 922 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 855 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 999 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 958 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 900 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 930 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 836 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 965 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 904 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 920 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 843 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 918 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 1093 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1223 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 815 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 866 Views

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