I was wondering something.
In TGS, Rand balefires Graendals entire palace, killing not just her(probably) but also everyone who serves her. He also burns all those threads backwards a bit. During this event, both Min and Nynaeve are absolutely horrified at what Rand just did. Nynaeve actually is so disturbed that she actually goes to Cadsuane and becomes all submissive in the hope that Cadsuane will change the course Rand has taken. Surely what Rand did was a horrific evil on a grand scale. A true atrocity.
Or is it?
I was thinking about this and it occurred to me to wonder why exactly are Min and Nynaeve so absolutely horrified. Why is Rand so convinced that he has damned himself. Why does Min think that what happened must be destroying Rand inside. I mean think about it, what actually happened there?
We KNOW from several sources (LTT, the boy, forsaken scenes) that all those people in the fortress other than Graendal were just mindless drones. Min and Nynaeve know it too since Rand explains it to them. They were essentially already dead. Yes, they might have been moving around, their lungs breathing, their hearts pumping. But we can say the same for that little girl Rand tried to resurrect with Callandor. Is it then murder when Rand pulled back his flows and let the girls body die?
Without awareness and free will, without intelligence and sentience, things which Graendal has taken away from them, can the people in the palace truly be said to be alive?
And if they cannot, does that not mean that the ONLY person that was truly ALIVE in that place was Graendal herself? A monster by any measure. So really, is what Rand did evil at all? Did any innocent civilian actually die?
Now yes, Rand does use balefire and we know its dangerous. Infact, perhaps that is the real reason for the horror that Min and Nynaeve feel. But really does that make sense either? How many people were in that palace? A hundred? Two? Lets go for broke and say Graendal had three hundred people in his palace. Now we know that Rand knows the damage balefire causes, he does not yet want to destroy the pattern at this point so we can assume that he regulated the amount of power used to only burn the people back as little as possible. Let's say 15 minutes.
Now you could argue that 15 minutes is too little since Rand used the Choedan Kal itself to do the job. However I would argue that the reason he had to use the CK was to erase the entire palace at once and not to burn the people back days or weeks. Remember that at this point Rand still wants to save the pattern so he would not do this.
So we have 300 people balefired with each one burned back in time 15 minutes. This does produce a reaction. Min describes it as reality warping around them. Perhaps this then is the atrocity here. Rand actually damages the pattern itself, endangering everything. He comes very close to destroying the world here.
Or does he?
If all it took to damage the pattern in a way that was in any way significant was to balefire 300 people back 15 minutes, then why has Moridin not done that? I mean he could just travel to some obscure village or town and start blasting away. Given how strong we know Moridin is, he could easily balefire 300 people. Heck, there are a lot of villages so if Moridin wanted he could probably balefire more than 300 people easily. In a few weeks he could probably balefire 3000. Or more! And each one more than 15 minutes. And these would be people who would actually be alive and sentient. With more active threads than the drones in Graendals palace.
We know why the rest of the forsaken don't do this. They want to rule and as such don't want the pattern to unravel. But we KNOW that Moridin is different. During the dream-meet he openly admits that the DO is going to unmake the pattern, that he knows it and that he thinks this is a really good thing.
It seems to me than that when we take the fact that Moridin does not do this together with other facts such as Rands comment that he has seen many thousands burned from the pattern together with the fact that apparently during the War of power, balefire was used on entire cities, it seems to me that erasing 300 drones who probably had very little influence on anything, and one forsaken, would do very little real damage to the pattern. To have a significant effect would probably require tens of thousands of people balefired or Moridin would constantly be out there secretly balefiring people as fast as he could.
Nothing else makes sense to me. Yes, Min does have a reaction that is written as pretty freaky but we have nothing to compare this reaction to. It is entirely subjective to her. For all we know this is actually the pattern going "Meh!" because what Rand did was utterly insignificant.
So really, why is it that Min and Nynaeve are so horrified? What was so terrible about what Rand did? It may not exactly be a thing of sunshine and little dancing kittens but I would say that many things Rand has done before have actually been worse. Rand was correct to do what he did to get rid of Graendal and Min and Nynaeve are just being fools.
I don't deny that Rand does go psycho in TGS, and that many of the things such as threatening to rain fire on the borderlanders show that he has totally lost it. But is this one specific act, balefiring Graendals palace, truly as wrong as it is suggested? I think not.
	In TGS, Rand balefires Graendals entire palace, killing not just her(probably) but also everyone who serves her. He also burns all those threads backwards a bit. During this event, both Min and Nynaeve are absolutely horrified at what Rand just did. Nynaeve actually is so disturbed that she actually goes to Cadsuane and becomes all submissive in the hope that Cadsuane will change the course Rand has taken. Surely what Rand did was a horrific evil on a grand scale. A true atrocity.
Or is it?
I was thinking about this and it occurred to me to wonder why exactly are Min and Nynaeve so absolutely horrified. Why is Rand so convinced that he has damned himself. Why does Min think that what happened must be destroying Rand inside. I mean think about it, what actually happened there?
We KNOW from several sources (LTT, the boy, forsaken scenes) that all those people in the fortress other than Graendal were just mindless drones. Min and Nynaeve know it too since Rand explains it to them. They were essentially already dead. Yes, they might have been moving around, their lungs breathing, their hearts pumping. But we can say the same for that little girl Rand tried to resurrect with Callandor. Is it then murder when Rand pulled back his flows and let the girls body die?
Without awareness and free will, without intelligence and sentience, things which Graendal has taken away from them, can the people in the palace truly be said to be alive?
And if they cannot, does that not mean that the ONLY person that was truly ALIVE in that place was Graendal herself? A monster by any measure. So really, is what Rand did evil at all? Did any innocent civilian actually die?
Now yes, Rand does use balefire and we know its dangerous. Infact, perhaps that is the real reason for the horror that Min and Nynaeve feel. But really does that make sense either? How many people were in that palace? A hundred? Two? Lets go for broke and say Graendal had three hundred people in his palace. Now we know that Rand knows the damage balefire causes, he does not yet want to destroy the pattern at this point so we can assume that he regulated the amount of power used to only burn the people back as little as possible. Let's say 15 minutes.
Now you could argue that 15 minutes is too little since Rand used the Choedan Kal itself to do the job. However I would argue that the reason he had to use the CK was to erase the entire palace at once and not to burn the people back days or weeks. Remember that at this point Rand still wants to save the pattern so he would not do this.
So we have 300 people balefired with each one burned back in time 15 minutes. This does produce a reaction. Min describes it as reality warping around them. Perhaps this then is the atrocity here. Rand actually damages the pattern itself, endangering everything. He comes very close to destroying the world here.
Or does he?
If all it took to damage the pattern in a way that was in any way significant was to balefire 300 people back 15 minutes, then why has Moridin not done that? I mean he could just travel to some obscure village or town and start blasting away. Given how strong we know Moridin is, he could easily balefire 300 people. Heck, there are a lot of villages so if Moridin wanted he could probably balefire more than 300 people easily. In a few weeks he could probably balefire 3000. Or more! And each one more than 15 minutes. And these would be people who would actually be alive and sentient. With more active threads than the drones in Graendals palace.
We know why the rest of the forsaken don't do this. They want to rule and as such don't want the pattern to unravel. But we KNOW that Moridin is different. During the dream-meet he openly admits that the DO is going to unmake the pattern, that he knows it and that he thinks this is a really good thing.
It seems to me than that when we take the fact that Moridin does not do this together with other facts such as Rands comment that he has seen many thousands burned from the pattern together with the fact that apparently during the War of power, balefire was used on entire cities, it seems to me that erasing 300 drones who probably had very little influence on anything, and one forsaken, would do very little real damage to the pattern. To have a significant effect would probably require tens of thousands of people balefired or Moridin would constantly be out there secretly balefiring people as fast as he could.
Nothing else makes sense to me. Yes, Min does have a reaction that is written as pretty freaky but we have nothing to compare this reaction to. It is entirely subjective to her. For all we know this is actually the pattern going "Meh!" because what Rand did was utterly insignificant.
So really, why is it that Min and Nynaeve are so horrified? What was so terrible about what Rand did? It may not exactly be a thing of sunshine and little dancing kittens but I would say that many things Rand has done before have actually been worse. Rand was correct to do what he did to get rid of Graendal and Min and Nynaeve are just being fools.
I don't deny that Rand does go psycho in TGS, and that many of the things such as threatening to rain fire on the borderlanders show that he has totally lost it. But is this one specific act, balefiring Graendals palace, truly as wrong as it is suggested? I think not.
		
			Rand the psycho?
		
	         - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM
	        1704 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
			I cannot follow your assumptions.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM
	        1109 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: I cannot follow your assumptions.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM
	        929 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Wait!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM
	        1046 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: Wait!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM
	        954 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: Wait!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM
	        943 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: Wait!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM
	        883 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
	    
			I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM
	        1003 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM
	        906 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM
	        981 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM
	        909 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM
	        966 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM
	        902 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM
	        961 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Of course, I agree with you, esp since I just put forth the idea you support earlier in the thread.
	    
	         - 11/01/2010 04:58:26 PM
	        1386 Views
	        
	    
	
	    
			Rand crossed a line
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM
	        1001 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
		
	    
			Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently?
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM
	        980 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM*
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM
	        477 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			But not in this turning of the Wheel.  So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM
	        909 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
			No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM*
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM
	        493 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			LOL ... super-death!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM
	        845 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
	    
			Yes it was.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM
	        980 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: Yes it was.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM
	        904 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: Yes it was.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM
	        930 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: Yes it was.
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM
	        930 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			let me ask the question in a different way
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM
	        920 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: let me ask the question in a different way
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM
	        917 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			actually that quote supports my thoughts
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM
	        961 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM
	        869 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:34:34 AM
	        866 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 01:13:40 AM
	        830 Views
	        
	    
	
	    
			Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM
	        984 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Sigh. What mass murder?
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM
	        818 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
			In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM
	        884 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM
	        910 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM
	        919 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM
	        858 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM
	        939 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM
	        877 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM
	        811 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS!
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM
	        978 Views
	        
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM
	        926 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol:
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM
	        925 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM
	        1003 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Meh
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM
	        839 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM
	        842 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM
	        929 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
	    
	         - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM
	        896 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good...
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM
	        908 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM
	        832 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM
	        858 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM
	        922 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM
	        855 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM
	        999 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions  - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
	        958 Views
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
	        958 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	     - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
	        958 Views
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
	        958 Views
	        
	
		
	    
			Nice way to avoid the argument.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM
	        900 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			I'm just done talking in circles.  You seem to think that because people
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM
	        930 Views
	        
	    
	
	    
			I concede
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM
	        836 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning.
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM
	        965 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Morals are subjective anyhow,
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM
	        920 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
			Re: Morals are subjective anyhow,
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM
	        843 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention
	    
	         - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM
	        918 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
		
	    
	
	    
	
	    
			You are treating Graendal's "pets" as though they were enemy combatants
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 03:40:03 PM
	        982 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Like I give a damn what a group of professional killers would do.
	    
	         - 08/01/2010 11:39:11 PM
	        840 Views
	        
	
		
	    
	
	    
			Graendal captured these people as part of the Shadows offensive,  Operation Chaos Rules
	    
	         - 09/01/2010 12:00:40 AM
	        1144 Views
	        
	    
	
	    
			Well, I still liked your first argument. It's a freaking war. The argument ...
	    
	         - 07/01/2010 07:08:53 PM
	        887 Views
	        
	    
	
	    
 
  
  
  
  
  
 