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I cannot follow your assumptions. Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM
Now yes, Rand does use balefire and we know its dangerous. Infact, perhaps that is the real reason for the horror that Min and Nynaeve feel. But really does that make sense either? How many people were in that palace? A hundred? Two? Lets go for broke and say Graendal had three hundred people in his palace. Now we know that Rand knows the damage balefire causes, he does not yet want to destroy the pattern at this point so we can assume that he regulated the amount of power used to only burn the people back as little as possible. Let's say 15 minutes.

Now you could argue that 15 minutes is too little since Rand used the Choedan Kal itself to do the job. However I would argue that the reason he had to use the CK was to erase the entire palace at once and not to burn the people back days or weeks. Remember that at this point Rand still wants to save the pattern so he would not do this.


I am unaware that it is possible to consciously adjust the potency of balefire. Not saying it's impossible, just asking for your source in this assertion. Thus far, everything we've seen leads us to believe that the amount of balefire used is proportional to its potency - and there was more balefire used in this one scene than in the entire rest of the series, combined.

If all it took to damage the pattern in a way that was in any way significant was to balefire 300 people back 15 minutes, then why has Moridin not done that? I mean he could just travel to some obscure village or town and start blasting away. Given how strong we know Moridin is, he could easily balefire 300 people. Heck, there are a lot of villages so if Moridin wanted he could probably balefire more than 300 people easily. In a few weeks he could probably balefire 3000. Or more! And each one more than 15 minutes. And these would be people who would actually be alive and sentient. With more active threads than the drones in Graendals palace.


This assumption is based on what you believe Moridin's plans are, but as we do not know exactly what those are, it's pretty much unfounded from the get-go. I mean, ask yourself, which of these possibilities is a more reasonable explanation for Moridin not balefiring entire populations?

1- Contrary to all evidence provided in the series and by Word of God (by Robert Jordan himself), balefire is actually harmless to the Pattern. After all, it can't be a question of quantity - Moridin wouldn't limit himself to a few hundred victims. If the unraveling of the Pattern through the use of balefire was Moridin's desire and dependent on a quantity of victims, Moridin would find that quantity of people and balefire them. therefore, contrary to Robert Jordan's opinion, balefire is completely and absolutely harmless to the Pattern.

2- Moridin's plans cannot come about through the destruction of the Pattern through balefire.

It seems to me than that when we take the fact that Moridin does not do this together with other facts such as Rands comment that he has seen many thousands burned from the pattern together with the fact that apparently during the War of power, balefire was used on entire cities, it seems to me that erasing 300 drones who probably had very little influence on anything, and one forsaken, would do very little real damage to the pattern. To have a significant effect would probably require tens of thousands of people balefired or Moridin would constantly be out there secretly balefiring people as fast as he could.


Finally, you assume that the destruction of the Pattern through balefire would happen through number of victims in an incident of balefire use. But we have no reason to believe this is how it happens. Really, the only was to know how would be for it to happen, and then there would be nobody to know.

There are innumerable possibilities other than that. Just as a way of examples, it could be a strict number of victims, but an absolute number, and every victim of balefire counts toward that number, therefore even a single victim of balefire brings the world distinctly closer to oblivion.

Or it could be a percentage - Say, one victim gives it a 0,01% chance of the Pattern unraveling, and a city would be a 20% chance. That still means that the Pattern could unravel from the balefire of just one person - say, Rahvin in The Fires of Heaven just as much as it could from an entire city.

And there are other possibilities too.

So I can't agree with you, simply because I don't accept your assumptions as true.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1835 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 1245 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 1231 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1262 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 1163 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 1074 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 1151 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 1063 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 1053 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 1027 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 1026 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 978 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 1023 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 1005 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 1121 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 1022 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 1124 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 1043 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 1099 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 1030 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 1097 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 996 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 1122 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 1125 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 1083 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 1159 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 966 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 1114 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 542 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 1023 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 1037 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 996 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 549 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 964 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 542 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 998 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 954 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 1103 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 1069 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 1057 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 1056 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 1061 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 1040 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 1123 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 991 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 1097 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 941 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 1043 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 1017 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 1042 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 1047 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 969 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 1059 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 1024 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 941 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 1095 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 1065 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 1069 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 998 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 1029 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 936 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 957 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 1134 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 961 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 966 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 1066 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 1025 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 1022 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 1098 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 945 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 991 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 1060 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 978 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 1133 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 1094 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 1031 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 1055 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 966 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 1091 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 1033 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 1040 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 977 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 1045 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 1233 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1357 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 938 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 972 Views

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