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I'd go with this - he lost sight of the forest for enumerating the trees. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 01/03/2010 08:21:39 PM

TGS (A Place to Begin) - "Is that what made you turn to his side?" Rand asked. "You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?"

Was anyone struck by this statement?

I've always thought this was what snared Ishamael, and to see it written in plain text was striking to me. Ishamael is so intelligent and thinks everything through so deeply, that he arrives at conclusions that seem illogical. It's like someone who becomes hysterical when presented with 1+1, insisting that it's 2 instantly, whereas a brilliant mathematician has alternate theories.

In this same way, we all automatically know that the DO is evil, but Elan got caught up in complex philosophy. He's still caught up in it.

It's an interesting statement, and personifies Ishamael for me.


Is Ishamael really more intelligent than Aginor - the genius mad scientist? Or Graendal, the foremost psychologist in the world? Or Demandred, the man who has an IQ of 160 compared to Lews Therin's 170, according to RJ?

I don't necessarily think so. Ishamael is different because he is a theologian and philosopher. He looks at the world with different eyes and from a different perspective than the other super intelligent members of the Forsaken. This doesn't mean that he is smarter than them. It just means that his area of expertise happens to be most suitable to understanding the Dark One.

Aginor's specialist area is biology. Graendal's is psychology. Demandred's is leadership, military strategy and politics.

Ishamael's is the study of good and evil. Exactly what is needed to understand the Dark One. He may not understand biology as well as Aginor, the human mind as well as Graendal, political and military strategy as well as Demandred. But he understands the nature of good and evil better than anyone.

That's all.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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Ishamael's nature Sidious - 01/03/2010 05:27:48 PM 1784 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature Watcher - 01/03/2010 07:15:54 PM 806 Views
Sisyphus *NM* damookster - 02/03/2010 02:27:06 AM 274 Views
Not a question of intelligence. Rather, a different way of thinking... Shannow - 01/03/2010 07:23:37 PM 821 Views
I'd go with this - he lost sight of the forest for enumerating the trees. Cannoli - 01/03/2010 08:21:39 PM 893 Views
I agree, except with your statement on what Ishamael's area of expertise is ... Shishka - 02/03/2010 03:17:13 PM 651 Views
Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil Sidious - 02/03/2010 04:38:06 PM 675 Views
Are you saying that philosophers are inherently more intelligent than other academics? Shannow - 02/03/2010 04:53:13 PM 572 Views
Maybe Sidious - 02/03/2010 06:00:20 PM 641 Views
Crap File Leader - 02/03/2010 08:58:12 PM 632 Views
That high IQ should make you realise that I am making the same point you are... Shannow - 02/03/2010 09:53:59 PM 588 Views
I think the averages are averages. Kieran - 03/03/2010 01:14:41 AM 559 Views
Re: Crap RugbyPlayingAshaman - 05/03/2010 08:46:56 PM 530 Views
Re: Crap mogi67 - 07/03/2010 11:36:16 PM 500 Views
I love IQ tests. Fanatic-Templar - 08/03/2010 01:18:10 AM 497 Views
Re: Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil Shishka - 02/03/2010 05:30:43 PM 595 Views
Re: Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil Sidious - 02/03/2010 06:01:41 PM 593 Views
Re: Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil mogi67 - 07/03/2010 11:31:14 PM 539 Views
I'm not an expert on nihilism, but ... Shishka - 08/03/2010 05:22:33 PM 688 Views
I doubt that. Fanatic-Templar - 08/03/2010 01:21:32 AM 509 Views
Re: I doubt that. car'a'aman - 08/03/2010 12:41:43 PM 498 Views
Yep, I agree. Shishka - 08/03/2010 05:58:03 PM 592 Views
This ties in with his parallel to Lucifer. Kieran - 03/03/2010 12:57:37 AM 579 Views
Re: Not a question of intelligence. Rather, a different way of thinking... BlackAdder - 02/03/2010 07:22:58 PM 559 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature newyorkersedai - 02/03/2010 01:49:19 AM 627 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature car'a'aman - 02/03/2010 02:51:44 PM 573 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature newyorkersedai - 02/03/2010 07:31:32 PM 551 Views
Both of us are saying the same thing car'a'aman - 03/03/2010 01:46:57 PM 516 Views
sorry, took "evil" too literally and newyorkersedai - 03/03/2010 07:02:01 PM 494 Views
Found a great theory about Ishamael and his logic on theoryland car'a'aman - 02/03/2010 02:48:02 PM 948 Views
Nice Sidious - 02/03/2010 04:41:05 PM 563 Views
Impressive newyorkersedai - 02/03/2010 07:24:09 PM 559 Views
I have to disagree on one thing, at the very least... Fanatic-Templar - 08/03/2010 01:47:47 AM 558 Views
Re: I have to disagree on one thing, at the very least... car'a'aman - 08/03/2010 12:37:27 PM 504 Views
Yes, but Shai'tan himself is outside the Pattern. Fanatic-Templar - 08/03/2010 06:23:19 PM 528 Views
Re: Yes, but Shai'tan himself is outside the Pattern. car'a'aman - 09/03/2010 01:54:26 PM 518 Views
Because there is a Creator. Fanatic-Templar - 09/03/2010 05:57:16 PM 481 Views
faulty assumptions car'a'aman - 10/03/2010 05:05:23 AM 486 Views
Impossible. Fanatic-Templar - 10/03/2010 06:22:43 AM 481 Views
maybe an analogy will help car'a'aman - 10/03/2010 12:55:37 PM 899 Views
But therein lies the problem. Fanatic-Templar - 10/03/2010 04:58:42 PM 479 Views
your own argument is self defeating car'a'aman - 11/03/2010 08:10:36 AM 508 Views
No, that past was created after he was imprisoned. Fanatic-Templar - 11/03/2010 05:43:08 PM 514 Views
*sigh* I guess we will just have to agree to disagree then.... I still think your theory is flawed *NM* car'a'aman - 12/03/2010 05:11:10 AM 232 Views
Anyway I just realized this point is irrelevant to the original theory car'a'aman - 11/03/2010 08:14:20 AM 488 Views
Yes, I said that at the very beginning: *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 11/03/2010 05:44:19 PM 225 Views
Your reasons and mine for irrelevancy are different.. *NM* car'a'aman - 12/03/2010 05:12:52 AM 216 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/03/2010 10:43:16 PM 571 Views
I don't know if this has any basis in fact... Napoleon62 - 04/03/2010 02:44:26 AM 644 Views
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