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Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil Sidious Send a noteboard - 02/03/2010 04:38:06 PM
Ishamael's is the study of good and evil. Exactly what is needed to understand the Dark One. He may not understand biology as well as Aginor, the human mind as well as Graendal, political and military strategy as well as Demandred. But he understands the nature of good and evil better than anyone.


I disagree. In my opinion, Ishamael would argue that any distinction made between Good and Evil is ultimately meaningless. And therefore he has no interest at all in trying to define such a distinction.

Ishamael is a Philosopher, and his specific area of study in the AoL was "meaning" - particularly, the meaning of life. And, in the course of pursuing that study, he convinced himself (through what seemed to him to be a logical train of thought) that all acts & endeavors - essentially, all existance - is futile and meaningless. That's what Rand was referring to when he told Ishamael in TGS: "You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?"

Look at the books Ishamael was purported to have written in the AoL (before he turned to the Shadow). I don't have the Guide with me, so I can't quote the book names exactly, but they were all essentially about the meaninglessness of life. The weren't about Good and Evil at all.

Ishamael is the very epitome of a nihilist. And that nihilism makes him want to destroy the Wheel, and therefore destroy the cycle of birth, futility, meaninglessness, and death it brings (as he sees it).

I don't believe Ishamael turned to the Shadow because he has any special regard for the DO. He turned to the Shadow because his goals coincide with the DO's. Siding with the DO gives him the best opportunity to fulfill his destiny, as he sees it. And, he tries to lure others to the Shadow for the same reason.



Ishamael is the ultimate villain and minion for the Dark One. He believes in pure evil, knows what it means to break the Wheel, and still supports it. This makes him unique among the Forsaken - the rest still think that they'll rule in hell.

In part, I therefore disagree with Shannow. I think Ishamael, like every great philosopher in our history, is a step higher in mental functioning. He is more intelligent than the other Forsaken, and probably every character we know. The fact that he chose the wrong side is curious, except for the fact that he thinks it is the right side. That's possibly why his peers think he's mad.
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Ishamael's nature - 01/03/2010 05:27:48 PM 1797 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature - 01/03/2010 07:15:54 PM 819 Views
Sisyphus *NM* - 02/03/2010 02:27:06 AM 281 Views
Not a question of intelligence. Rather, a different way of thinking... - 01/03/2010 07:23:37 PM 837 Views
I agree, except with your statement on what Ishamael's area of expertise is ... - 02/03/2010 03:17:13 PM 663 Views
Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil - 02/03/2010 04:38:06 PM 692 Views
Are you saying that philosophers are inherently more intelligent than other academics? - 02/03/2010 04:53:13 PM 588 Views
Maybe - 02/03/2010 06:00:20 PM 655 Views
Crap - 02/03/2010 08:58:12 PM 642 Views
I think the averages are averages. - 03/03/2010 01:14:41 AM 569 Views
Re: Crap - 05/03/2010 08:46:56 PM 542 Views
Re: Crap - 07/03/2010 11:36:16 PM 513 Views
I love IQ tests. - 08/03/2010 01:18:10 AM 508 Views
Re: Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil - 02/03/2010 05:30:43 PM 609 Views
Re: Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil - 07/03/2010 11:31:14 PM 550 Views
I'm not an expert on nihilism, but ... - 08/03/2010 05:22:33 PM 702 Views
I doubt that. - 08/03/2010 01:21:32 AM 524 Views
Re: I doubt that. - 08/03/2010 12:41:43 PM 511 Views
Yep, I agree. - 08/03/2010 05:58:03 PM 610 Views
This ties in with his parallel to Lucifer. - 03/03/2010 12:57:37 AM 592 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature - 02/03/2010 01:49:19 AM 641 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature - 02/03/2010 02:51:44 PM 587 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature - 02/03/2010 07:31:32 PM 564 Views
Both of us are saying the same thing - 03/03/2010 01:46:57 PM 531 Views
sorry, took "evil" too literally and - 03/03/2010 07:02:01 PM 509 Views
Found a great theory about Ishamael and his logic on theoryland - 02/03/2010 02:48:02 PM 984 Views
Nice - 02/03/2010 04:41:05 PM 577 Views
Impressive - 02/03/2010 07:24:09 PM 572 Views
I have to disagree on one thing, at the very least... - 08/03/2010 01:47:47 AM 569 Views
Re: I have to disagree on one thing, at the very least... - 08/03/2010 12:37:27 PM 518 Views
Yes, but Shai'tan himself is outside the Pattern. - 08/03/2010 06:23:19 PM 552 Views
Re: Yes, but Shai'tan himself is outside the Pattern. - 09/03/2010 01:54:26 PM 544 Views
Because there is a Creator. - 09/03/2010 05:57:16 PM 497 Views
faulty assumptions - 10/03/2010 05:05:23 AM 499 Views
Impossible. - 10/03/2010 06:22:43 AM 497 Views
maybe an analogy will help - 10/03/2010 12:55:37 PM 913 Views
But therein lies the problem. - 10/03/2010 04:58:42 PM 490 Views
your own argument is self defeating - 11/03/2010 08:10:36 AM 521 Views
Anyway I just realized this point is irrelevant to the original theory - 11/03/2010 08:14:20 AM 497 Views
Yes, I said that at the very beginning: *NM* - 11/03/2010 05:44:19 PM 231 Views
Your reasons and mine for irrelevancy are different.. *NM* - 12/03/2010 05:12:52 AM 221 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature - 02/03/2010 10:43:16 PM 581 Views
I don't know if this has any basis in fact... - 04/03/2010 02:44:26 AM 661 Views

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