Active Users:1015 Time:31/10/2025 04:40:01 PM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
I'm satisfied by that explanation. Vivien Send a noteboard - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM


If we are baptized in this life, the ordinance is done. If we are not, it can be done for us by proxy.

This is one doctrine that has always seemed so logical to me, I never have quite understood the attention and debate it stirs. Christ came to save all men. What about all the people who have never even heard his name? There are still people today who do not know anything about Christ. They have not been baptized, but it's not because they rejected Christ. Are they just out of luck?

Instead, we believe that they can learn the gospel in the afterlife, and can accept it. We perform their baptism for them, and they can choose to accept it or not. But it means it is their choice, not something beyond their control because of circumstances.



I really like this part of your religion. Not that it would help me, but still. This is good.

But then- shouldn't this be an argument *against* missionaries? What if you fail to convince someone and that person rejects Christ in this life. It seems like you'd be able to be more convincing in the afterlife.


But a person must have a clear chance to accept it. There isn't any clear definition what that means, because it's different for every person. If the missionaries knock, and get a door slammed in their face, it likely doesn't mean the person's chance is up. They didn't know enough to reject it. So if the missionaries "fail to convince someone" like you said, it doesn't necessarily mean they're out of luck.

And though it does seem like it'd be impossible to not believe the gospel if you are actually in the afterlife, it will happen. Doesn't make much sense, but I don't think our mortal minds are that good at comprehending non-mortal existence.

And then, beside all that, living the gospel is the key to true joy. It's the difference of helping people find happiness now, as opposed to up to 100 years later on..



Those are really good answers. Both that telling someone now doesn't necessarily use up their chance, and that you want to tell them now because you want to and because you believe they will be happier and more fulfilled in this life as a result, regardless of the afterlife.



It might be a personal question, but why do you think this? I don't care what you've done. You're never too unworthy to pray to God. You can always be forgiven if you are sincere in asking. Please don't think you are beyond help.



Oh Gosh it's not about what I've done and my worth. It's almost funny, that's almost exactly backwards. I was christian for a fairly decent period of time and I made a choice to turn away from Christ, as you'd say it. Not a decision made lightly or suddenly.

My behavior didn't change, it's not like a story from a teen bible study group where the lapsed christian uses drugs and risky behavior to fill the void in his/her soul. Couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, I've never ever tried any recreational drugs. I have drank alcohol but not much and not very often. I almost never drank in high school and rarely in college and now I'm probably in the heyday of my drinking days but realistically I have alcohol an average of once a month.

Hahaha, I just googled what else mormons don't allow and guess what- I would have no problem with a coffee ban because I don't drink it anyway. I'm also not gay so I'd have no problem with not being gay. I have had premarital sex but I mean, I'm 25- if I hadn't at this point it would certainly be my new year's resolution to fix that. Oh! Also- I almost never curse and I don't like it when I'm around people that do. If I feel comfortable and I want to spend more time with someone who curses a lot I'll ask him or her to try to curse less. [And I dislike it for many reasons- for one thing people don't realize you're angry or upset unless you curse but that's a whole other topic]

Not that I think any of the above define a person's "worth"! I've only addressed those points because that's what came up with google. The point is, it's not about anything I've done that makes me unworthy or scared. The point is I simply don't believe. I just cannot be sincere in praying to God or asking for forgiveness/help. If it's real- if there is an all powerful God out there- I don't love him with any part of my heart.

Numerous edits because I tried to fix the quote thing and then I thought of the cursing thing.
This message last edited by Vivien on 06/10/2011 at 09:12:07 PM
Reply to message
Mormons CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM 2562 Views
Questions. Kuke - 03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM 1304 Views
Ooh! Ooh! Kuke - 03/10/2011 11:18:38 AM 1160 Views
I don't watch it. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:34:53 AM 1178 Views
Re: Questions. CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 01:28:28 PM 1268 Views
Re: Questions. CaptainHammer - 03/10/2011 01:31:13 PM 1110 Views
I don't understand why they would be called drinks, if they were not meant to be drunk. aerocontrols - 03/10/2011 03:28:48 PM 1185 Views
Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM* beetnemesis - 03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM 704 Views
Wyld Stallyns!! aerocontrols - 03/10/2011 03:26:54 PM 1073 Views
STATION! *NM* Two Wongs - 03/10/2011 11:00:35 PM 633 Views
Re: One of the best replies, ever, on the internet. *NM* Gaps - 06/10/2011 02:43:07 AM 684 Views
....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM* LadyLorraine - 03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM 658 Views
Nope. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM 1136 Views
there's no real point to it LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM 2161 Views
We could use an evil cackling smilie, we do have some other evil ones Isaac - 04/10/2011 02:49:12 AM 1101 Views
wasn't going to argue... *NM* LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:57:00 AM 639 Views
Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?" Ghavrel - 03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM 1214 Views
There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM* Legolas - 03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM 645 Views
In fairness, I wonder the same about Christian literalists. *NM* Ghavrel - 03/10/2011 07:57:19 PM 714 Views
Yeah, but if you're gonna believe absurdities... Legolas - 03/10/2011 09:02:32 PM 1198 Views
Are you trying to suggest that "Reformed" or some other brand of scientology is plausible? Joel - 04/10/2011 04:28:40 PM 1154 Views
Actually, no. It'd be like laughing at... Hosea. Or Nemeiah. It's just an old name. Gher - 04/10/2011 12:30:57 AM 1112 Views
I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there ironclad - 03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM 1136 Views
There are Fundamentalist "Mormons" who do... Danu - 03/10/2011 11:32:56 PM 1038 Views
Don't get me wrong by the way, I've met wonderful Mormons ironclad - 04/10/2011 12:22:03 PM 1110 Views
Question: Why are you such a faggot? *NM* Urza - 03/10/2011 02:23:45 PM 550 Views
Answer: because it's the only way he could return your burning love for him. Nate - 03/10/2011 03:24:23 PM 780 Views
Oh dont be such a fuddy duddy. Urza - 03/10/2011 10:42:06 PM 775 Views
Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM* everynametaken - 04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM 663 Views
Well, I suppose you'ld be the one to know. *NM* Urza - 04/10/2011 01:54:35 AM 598 Views
Really? You really just pulled a "takes one to know one"? *NM* Kronin al'Sulc - 04/10/2011 04:19:22 PM 704 Views
Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM* Gaps - 04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM 555 Views
I'll tell you whats embarresing... Urza - 04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM 887 Views
That is hilarious. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM 778 Views
Goodness.. Urza - 04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM 704 Views
Re: Nate - 04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM 744 Views
You know, my mother had a saying. Urza - 04/10/2011 03:39:32 AM 782 Views
I think it's safe to say ... Nate - 04/10/2011 04:09:17 AM 682 Views
I'm not sure which would be sadder... Legolas - 04/10/2011 11:32:55 AM 820 Views
*NM* ironclad - 04/10/2011 12:19:01 PM 638 Views
Re: You flatter me. *NM* Gaps - 04/10/2011 01:31:01 PM 677 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly beetnemesis - 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM 696 Views
"Re" doesn't have to mean "reply", it can also mean "regarding". Legolas - 04/10/2011 02:01:31 PM 717 Views
Re: Re: Gaps - 04/10/2011 02:06:58 PM 730 Views
Re: Re: Stephen - 04/10/2011 02:12:57 PM 690 Views
Re: Also. Gaps - 04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM 736 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM* LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM 677 Views
He's doing it on purpose though. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM 805 Views
Re: Yeah, it's just a shtick... Gaps - 04/10/2011 03:47:17 PM 694 Views
Those were the good old days. Nate - 04/10/2011 04:02:33 PM 710 Views
*NM* TaskmasterJack - 04/10/2011 10:02:30 PM 622 Views
I agree, it's driving me nuts *NM* ironclad - 04/10/2011 02:36:45 PM 604 Views
That's not quite right, actually. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:25:54 PM 633 Views
Disagree. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 04/10/2011 10:04:09 PM 661 Views
Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. Great Lord of Chaos - 04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM 668 Views
Re: Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. Urza - 04/10/2011 02:37:41 AM 703 Views
Heh. Oh, Ryan. Kronin al'Sulc - 04/10/2011 04:36:43 PM 809 Views
*sigh* to all of you above.... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM 714 Views
I thought that was "Do not talk about /b/"? *NM* Great Lord of Chaos - 04/10/2011 03:12:52 AM 702 Views
i don't know, but if THAT is the first rule... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:41:20 AM 673 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians. Tom - 03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM 1294 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though LadyLorraine - 03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM 1190 Views
We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM 1157 Views
"Even Christ didn't do that"? I can't agree. Legolas - 03/10/2011 09:00:34 PM 1164 Views
I conceded your last point. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 10:14:28 PM 1042 Views
Point of Anal Retentive Dissent: Joel - 04/10/2011 03:54:00 PM 1078 Views
That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however. Tom - 03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM 1163 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM 1099 Views
Oh, that's very simple Tom - 04/10/2011 04:02:24 AM 1120 Views
I honestly don't know what it would take. Dannymac - 04/10/2011 07:41:55 AM 1116 Views
thank you, both of you LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 01:46:05 PM 1103 Views
I love the Nicene Creed. It is such an excellent encapsulation. Rebekah - 03/10/2011 06:07:53 PM 1192 Views
Agreed. Joel - 04/10/2011 04:44:49 PM 1072 Views
The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's) Jeordam - 03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM 1143 Views
Glad you enjoyed it Tom - 03/10/2011 10:10:39 PM 1240 Views
Though they can cause interesting changes in patterns. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 10:16:55 PM 1204 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God. Gher - 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM 1234 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. Tom - 04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM 1400 Views
I never said well-written, I said complex. Gher - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM 1275 Views
Ignore facts all you want to. Tom - 05/10/2011 01:07:35 AM 1162 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM 1377 Views
Woah nelly. Ghavrel - 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM 1163 Views
I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM 1086 Views
Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM 1190 Views
oh well that makes it all better... LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM 1195 Views
Exactly ironclad - 04/10/2011 06:00:54 PM 1108 Views
Was the twin banging and the gay wedding the same event? Joel - 04/10/2011 06:36:03 PM 1184 Views
Yikes. Even for religion, that's more than a little crazy. Nate - 04/10/2011 03:47:56 PM 1176 Views
I don't think there's much of a difference in crazy as opposed to other more mainstream religions. Vivien - 04/10/2011 07:08:06 PM 1142 Views
A difference exists if only in continued unabashed affirmation of a rather distasteful doctrine. Joel - 04/10/2011 11:06:51 PM 1140 Views
Then why can't women be priests? Or enter the altar? The curse on Eve is very much in place. *NM* Aeryn - 05/10/2011 12:27:04 AM 611 Views
OK, within the Mormon context I can see that point. Joel - 05/10/2011 12:33:52 AM 1074 Views
They can in quite a few denominations. *NM* Ghavrel - 05/10/2011 06:12:35 AM 656 Views
Whoops! You meant in LDS specifically. My mistake. *NM* Ghavrel - 05/10/2011 06:14:05 AM 641 Views
Right now I am not making an absolute statement but a relative one. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:37:50 PM 928 Views
Yes, that is kind of the problem. Joel - 06/10/2011 12:13:27 AM 1102 Views
Oh, you didn't know? Joe Smith said black people are cursed for following Satan. Tom - 05/10/2011 01:10:35 AM 1125 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked Joel - 04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM 1071 Views
it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel" LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM 1114 Views
It is not NECESSARILY racist. Joel - 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM 1159 Views
Sure, except ... Nate - 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM 1169 Views
Well, the funny thing is Christian doctrine presupposes everyone, along with their ancestors... Joel - 04/10/2011 06:31:13 PM 1064 Views
Yeah, circular logic is fun, isn't it? Tom - 05/10/2011 01:09:25 AM 1089 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian." Joel - 04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM 1181 Views
I think we've had this discussion before. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM 1171 Views
Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian. Joel - 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM 1072 Views
Wikipedia confirms what I already thought: you're off base with the monophysitism. Legolas - 07/10/2011 12:06:40 AM 1401 Views
I had not realized it was that late, but used it only as an example of multitudinous controversies. Joel - 07/10/2011 01:03:56 AM 1511 Views
Monophysites, miaphysites, monothelites, etc. certainly accept the consubstantiality of God/Christ Larry - 07/10/2011 11:58:05 AM 1104 Views
Virtually everyone has a more sound Christology than Mormons. Tom - 07/10/2011 06:45:45 PM 1133 Views
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Joel - 08/10/2011 05:30:38 PM 1152 Views
I can see that with the Monothelites (can see their appeal, in fact,) but not Monophysites. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:43:27 PM 1064 Views
Tempting as it is to prove Joel wrong (since he so frequently is), I need to take issue with this. Tom - 07/10/2011 06:59:13 PM 1143 Views
I was just saying there were competing views. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:49:26 PM 1531 Views
Oh, there were definitely competing views, just not competing Christian views. Joel - 07/10/2011 09:26:22 PM 1039 Views
That sounds really nice. Vivien - 04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM 1140 Views
Why wait though? Joel - 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM 1293 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM* Aeryn - 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM 592 Views
Ack, not reading and thinking111 Joel - 05/10/2011 12:36:11 AM 1107 Views
I really want an answer from a mormon. Vivien - 05/10/2011 08:48:49 PM 1141 Views
Good luck with that; just because I can see no explanation save that I offered does not preclude one Joel - 06/10/2011 07:03:50 AM 1034 Views
Yeah, that's what I thought. Gher - 06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM 1061 Views
I'm satisfied by that explanation. Vivien - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM 1303 Views
Re: I'm satisfied by that explanation. Gher - 07/10/2011 07:45:29 PM 1120 Views
Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head* everynametaken - 04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM 948 Views
....i don't know what you look like LadyLorraine - 04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM 1078 Views
Shoot, my Mick Jagger strut is way better than my angry hispanic girl head/finger bob and weave. *NM* everynametaken - 05/10/2011 04:58:53 AM 718 Views
Took the words right out of my mouth, repeatedly. Joel - 04/10/2011 12:49:13 PM 1290 Views
Off-Topic Larry - 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM 1058 Views
Hmm Tom - 05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM 1257 Views
True Larry - 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM 1059 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy. Tom - 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM 1154 Views
Maybe Xeroxes of abridged texts and dumbed down theology Larry - 06/10/2011 02:26:58 AM 1258 Views
I like that analogy - an echo chamber! *NM* Tom - 08/10/2011 10:44:04 PM 635 Views
Re: Off-Topic CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM 1286 Views
Uhh... Larry - 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM 1058 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets. CaptainHammer - 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM 1190 Views
And you know that because... why, again? Joel - 05/10/2011 07:13:53 AM 1127 Views
Tough Crowd. Dannymac - 03/10/2011 04:44:31 PM 1235 Views
No questions. Have a nice day. TaskmasterJack - 03/10/2011 11:40:58 PM 1079 Views
Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? *NM* Dan - 04/10/2011 03:58:16 AM 717 Views
Re: Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? CaptainHammer - 04/10/2011 05:23:12 PM 1195 Views
Danny is right, it is a pretty tough crowd, but better tough than weak and whitewashed. everynametaken - 04/10/2011 04:02:16 AM 1119 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes