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Arianism is a bad comparison for arguing LDS=Christian. Joel Send a noteboard - 06/10/2011 11:45:36 PM
And nothing has changed. I'm sorry, but I just don't care to get into such a big argument when we both interpret things very differently.

Fair enough, but after all, my primary contention here is that we DO interpret things very differently; that is why we subscribe to different religions.
But as for the Nicene Creed. I don't know very much about Christian history from the time after the New Testament. But I do know that much of the Nicene Creed was not commonly accepted for the ~300 years leading up to it. There were competing views, and some did not believe in the Trinity. Not just the Gnostics and other religions you mentioned, but Christians. So yes, a non-Nicene Christian is possible. My memory is fuzzy, but it seems like it Athanasian Christianity vs Something. IIRC, Athanasians believed the Trinity, the others believed in 3 distinct personages. I'm just trying to get the names across so you know what I mean, I'm sure you've studied it.

Though the comparison is natural; the crux of Arianism is Arius' contention that
If the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not. It therefore necessarily follows, that he had his substance from nothing.

which is much the same logic Joseph Smith used to contend the Father made the Son and was Himself made by a father made in turn by yet ANOTHER father, though the bible never even references those last two beings (despite Joseph Smiths assertion to the contrary.) Athansius was orthodox doctrines chief apologist and thoroughly refuted that concepts place in Christianity a millennium and a half ago; it has only grown less rather than more compatible with Christianity since.

Christians COMMONLY accepted most, if not all, of the Nicene Creed long before the Council of Nicaea. The Council was prompted by that commonly accepted beliefs growing erosion and muddling due to deliberate Gnostic and heretic assaults and a widespread vagueness and ignorance among NEW Christians only beginning to rigorously explore Christology. Thus the Church formally stated its Christology, clarifying what was indisputably Spirit breathed (e.g. the Gospel of John) and what was simply heresy (e.g. Monophysite denial of Christs humanity, Ebionite denial of His divinity, and Gnostic Trojan horses like the "Gospels" of Thomas and Judas.) The Councils of Nicaea and Ephesus brought order out of chaos by the Grace of God, but the idea Christianity had until then been an eclectic equivalent of Gnosticism that simply replaced "gnosis" with "Jesus" in not credible.

Then as now there were certainly plenty of casual "disciples" who neither knew nor cared to know doctrinal details, but anyone familiar with Mormon history from NY to UT knows that a fan is not an adherent. Those who ARE adherents, however, require a clear doctrine to which they can adhere, particularly when besieged by myriad competing incompatible beliefs and new in their own faith. The Church Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, put an end to Christians confused into accepting things like Arianism, Monophysism and Ebionism, or led completely astray by things like Gnosticism. That is not to say another religion cannot now promote Arianism or anything else, only that a doctrine other than Christianitys long ago clearly and definitely established one is ANOTHER religion.
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The Arian Controversy
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Mormons - 03/10/2011 05:46:10 AM 2522 Views
Questions. - 03/10/2011 11:13:25 AM 1258 Views
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Re: Questions. - 03/10/2011 01:31:13 PM 1072 Views
Why did I look up what Quorn is? I didn't need to know that. *NM* - 03/10/2011 02:04:20 PM 680 Views
Wyld Stallyns!! - 03/10/2011 03:26:54 PM 1049 Views
STATION! *NM* - 03/10/2011 11:00:35 PM 615 Views
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....did we just get door-to-door'd...ONLINE?!?! *NM* - 03/10/2011 11:34:19 AM 638 Views
Nope. - 04/10/2011 01:32:43 AM 1108 Views
there's no real point to it - 04/10/2011 02:37:24 AM 2130 Views
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wasn't going to argue... *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:57:00 AM 622 Views
Do you ever giggle at the name "Moroni?" - 03/10/2011 11:39:55 AM 1179 Views
There are Mormon literalists? Seriously? *NM* - 03/10/2011 03:02:18 PM 624 Views
I know they don't have multiple wives anymore, so no misconception there - 03/10/2011 01:23:50 PM 1093 Views
There are Fundamentalist "Mormons" who do... - 03/10/2011 11:32:56 PM 1012 Views
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Oh dont be such a fuddy duddy. - 03/10/2011 10:42:06 PM 758 Views
Better a faggot than a fuckwad. Cheers fuckwad! *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:27:20 AM 650 Views
Well, I suppose you'ld be the one to know. *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:54:35 AM 582 Views
Really? You really just pulled a "takes one to know one"? *NM* - 04/10/2011 04:19:22 PM 686 Views
Re: You embarrass yourself. *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:56:02 AM 539 Views
I'll tell you whats embarresing... - 04/10/2011 02:08:02 AM 872 Views
That is hilarious. - 04/10/2011 03:10:50 AM 758 Views
Goodness.. - 04/10/2011 03:20:30 AM 688 Views
Re: - 04/10/2011 03:28:25 AM 725 Views
You know, my mother had a saying. - 04/10/2011 03:39:32 AM 763 Views
I think it's safe to say ... - 04/10/2011 04:09:17 AM 661 Views
I'm not sure which would be sadder... - 04/10/2011 11:32:55 AM 802 Views
*NM* - 04/10/2011 12:19:01 PM 619 Views
Re: You flatter me. *NM* - 04/10/2011 01:31:01 PM 651 Views
OK, you need to delete the "Re:" You're using it incorrectly - 04/10/2011 01:55:53 PM 678 Views
"Re" doesn't have to mean "reply", it can also mean "regarding". - 04/10/2011 02:01:31 PM 704 Views
Re: Re: - 04/10/2011 02:06:58 PM 709 Views
Re: Re: - 04/10/2011 02:12:57 PM 672 Views
Re: Also. - 04/10/2011 02:08:15 PM 720 Views
you are still using it incorrectly. *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:09:48 PM 663 Views
He's doing it on purpose though. - 04/10/2011 03:31:39 PM 789 Views
Re: Yeah, it's just a shtick... - 04/10/2011 03:47:17 PM 677 Views
Those were the good old days. - 04/10/2011 04:02:33 PM 694 Views
*NM* - 04/10/2011 10:02:30 PM 604 Views
I agree, it's driving me nuts *NM* - 04/10/2011 02:36:45 PM 590 Views
That's not quite right, actually. - 04/10/2011 03:25:54 PM 616 Views
Disagree. *NM* - 04/10/2011 10:04:09 PM 637 Views
Considering that "CaptainHammer" is LDS, I'd rather doubt he's gay. - 04/10/2011 02:32:56 AM 652 Views
Heh. Oh, Ryan. - 04/10/2011 04:36:43 PM 797 Views
*sigh* to all of you above.... - 04/10/2011 03:06:21 AM 699 Views
I thought that was "Do not talk about /b/"? *NM* - 04/10/2011 03:12:52 AM 687 Views
i don't know, but if THAT is the first rule... - 04/10/2011 03:41:20 AM 654 Views
Please explain why you think we should consider you Christians. - 03/10/2011 04:33:06 PM 1255 Views
you know, that does make me wonder though - 03/10/2011 04:58:21 PM 1158 Views
We're not as immovable as we are sometimes portrayed. - 03/10/2011 05:27:17 PM 1128 Views
"Even Christ didn't do that"? I can't agree. - 03/10/2011 09:00:34 PM 1112 Views
I conceded your last point. - 03/10/2011 10:14:28 PM 1011 Views
Point of Anal Retentive Dissent: - 04/10/2011 03:54:00 PM 1032 Views
That concept is alien to the Christian theological understanding, however. - 03/10/2011 10:18:55 PM 1122 Views
I understand what both you and Danny are saying - 04/10/2011 12:19:57 AM 1063 Views
Oh, that's very simple - 04/10/2011 04:02:24 AM 1092 Views
I honestly don't know what it would take. - 04/10/2011 07:41:55 AM 1087 Views
thank you, both of you - 04/10/2011 01:46:05 PM 1075 Views
I love the Nicene Creed. It is such an excellent encapsulation. - 03/10/2011 06:07:53 PM 1160 Views
Agreed. - 04/10/2011 04:44:49 PM 1031 Views
The absolute best part about your post (plus the best thing about Mo's/LDS's) - 03/10/2011 09:02:17 PM 1116 Views
Glad you enjoyed it - 03/10/2011 10:10:39 PM 1198 Views
Though they can cause interesting changes in patterns. - 03/10/2011 10:16:55 PM 1178 Views
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all mankind, and the only way back to God. - 04/10/2011 01:29:30 AM 1183 Views
If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. - 04/10/2011 03:57:08 AM 1357 Views
I never said well-written, I said complex. - 04/10/2011 07:04:24 AM 1232 Views
Ignore facts all you want to. - 05/10/2011 01:07:35 AM 1128 Views
Re: If you think the Book of Mormon was well-written, there is really little left to discuss. - 04/10/2011 07:24:27 AM 1330 Views
Woah nelly. - 04/10/2011 10:04:33 AM 1129 Views
I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? - 04/10/2011 01:52:48 PM 1056 Views
Re: I have to "Wow" as well... racist much? - 04/10/2011 04:42:47 PM 1161 Views
oh well that makes it all better... - 04/10/2011 04:54:14 PM 1161 Views
Exactly - 04/10/2011 06:00:54 PM 1081 Views
Was the twin banging and the gay wedding the same event? - 04/10/2011 06:36:03 PM 1153 Views
I guess this is a variation on Hams punishment; Ghav, at least should know better than to be shocked - 04/10/2011 04:13:59 PM 1041 Views
it's not that we're surprised because it's "novel" - 04/10/2011 04:19:16 PM 1078 Views
It is not NECESSARILY racist. - 04/10/2011 04:39:33 PM 1112 Views
Sure, except ... - 04/10/2011 04:50:53 PM 1130 Views
Yeah, circular logic is fun, isn't it? - 05/10/2011 01:09:25 AM 1048 Views
It it is nigh impossible to be a "non-Nicene Christian." - 04/10/2011 03:12:06 PM 1136 Views
I think we've had this discussion before. - 06/10/2011 05:54:39 PM 1129 Views
That sounds really nice. - 04/10/2011 06:38:29 PM 1087 Views
Why wait though? - 05/10/2011 12:12:21 AM 1257 Views
So that Vivien can avoid reading and thinking about the stuff that you just wrote. *NM* - 05/10/2011 12:28:23 AM 575 Views
Ack, not reading and thinking111 - 05/10/2011 12:36:11 AM 1071 Views
Yeah, that's what I thought. - 06/10/2011 05:43:57 PM 1016 Views
I'm satisfied by that explanation. - 06/10/2011 08:51:15 PM 1253 Views
Re: I'm satisfied by that explanation. - 07/10/2011 07:45:29 PM 1086 Views
Oh no you idn't... *waves finger and weaves head* - 04/10/2011 03:53:07 AM 919 Views
....i don't know what you look like - 04/10/2011 03:54:56 AM 1048 Views
Took the words right out of my mouth, repeatedly. - 04/10/2011 12:49:13 PM 1251 Views
Off-Topic - 05/10/2011 01:14:16 AM 1027 Views
Hmm - 05/10/2011 02:03:13 AM 1211 Views
True - 05/10/2011 02:13:00 AM 1005 Views
I think of Protestantism in terms similar to a Xerox copy. - 05/10/2011 04:57:42 AM 1113 Views
Maybe Xeroxes of abridged texts and dumbed down theology - 06/10/2011 02:26:58 AM 1222 Views
I like that analogy - an echo chamber! *NM* - 08/10/2011 10:44:04 PM 615 Views
Re: Off-Topic - 05/10/2011 02:56:50 AM 1254 Views
Uhh... - 05/10/2011 03:08:49 AM 1036 Views
The people at the Nicene Council and the other councils were not prophets. - 05/10/2011 04:59:50 AM 1160 Views
And you know that because... why, again? - 05/10/2011 07:13:53 AM 1091 Views
Tough Crowd. - 03/10/2011 04:44:31 PM 1211 Views
No questions. Have a nice day. - 03/10/2011 11:40:58 PM 1045 Views
Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? *NM* - 04/10/2011 03:58:16 AM 696 Views
Re: Why don't they have anything approaching a formal theology? - 04/10/2011 05:23:12 PM 1159 Views

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