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I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria. Tom Send a noteboard - 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM
Style, aesthetics and ideas. It's clear that Jordan isn't meaningful literature, though, so I did mention that books that are entertainment don't really need a big idea.

The problem I have with Jordan is that it's not a joy to read it for its own sake. Aesthetically and stylistically it's a train wreck. You read it for one reason, and one reason only - the story. The problem that I then have with Jordan is that the story was good for the first six books and then just got bogged down.

You are being extremely charitable when you say that he had a grand experiment that he poorly executed. I think he was like most other writers in the genre - he had a good idea that he thought he could cash in on. He knew he needed a big climactic finish at the end of each book but at a certain point he had thrown on so much unnecessary detail that he couldn't get the pieces in the right spot, and so for book after book he just kept fiddling with things but not moving it anywhere because he knew each new piece of crap he turned out would still sell. He wanted to finish the series, of course, but he was content to release sub-par work (even for him) because he was thinking about paying his bills. I don't blame him - every author without another job has an eye to the profit angle (Dumas certainly did, to take your example).

I just don't think that he had the grand vision. He was going to write a trilogy, and it just started expanding, and at a certain point it expanded beyond his ability to generate thrilling conclusions to each book.

As for this forum, I don't even want to think about how many websites there are out there for the Twilight series. Having a forum isn't an indication of writing talent in the least. I'm also sure Dan Brown has some fansites out there (and a fair number of them probably believe that he's publishing facts as fiction to avoid being murdered by the Federal Reserve).

I've bashed WoT a bit more than it perhaps deserves at times, but I generally agree with your assessment, with the caveats listed here.

Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3620 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 2048 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1711 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1536 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1612 Views
Oh, it really depends. - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 1403 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 1080 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 2041 Views
Thank you. - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1739 Views
Well Said! - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1851 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 2104 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1833 Views
Not particularly. - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1999 Views
Agreed. - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1567 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1652 Views
Amen *NM* - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 975 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 2708 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1783 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1670 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 2101 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1911 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 981 Views
There are nine, actually... - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1843 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 1480 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1630 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1583 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 1682 Views
So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1878 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 1460 Views
I'm not trolling - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1515 Views
That depends... - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1765 Views
I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria. - 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM 1650 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1606 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1567 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1726 Views
Not for quality of writing. - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1582 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 1075 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1634 Views
If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 1636 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1507 Views
I still don't get it. - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 1537 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 1574 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 1542 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1554 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1616 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1577 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 981 Views
... - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 1468 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 1359 Views
It is not a serious question. - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1704 Views
How so? - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1711 Views
I have every right to use that tone. - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1547 Views
Is that so? - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1911 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1578 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1612 Views
You're conflating two things. - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1821 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 1655 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 994 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 1455 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 928 Views
Glad to hear that. - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 1552 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 947 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 1725 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1775 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 922 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 950 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 1065 Views
Re: ... - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1532 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1678 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 1504 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1886 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 1487 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1644 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 1556 Views
Ok... - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 1543 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1671 Views
*NM* - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 983 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 1409 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1673 Views
Among living writers? - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1740 Views
No Rushdie? - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 1474 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 1463 Views
My list would be similar... - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1842 Views
That was a very good list. - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1826 Views
Re: That was a very good list. - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1779 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 1663 Views
Oh, and another question - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 1344 Views
Re: Oh, and another question - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1691 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 1423 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1784 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1819 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1668 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1785 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1721 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1693 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1817 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 1093 Views

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