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Let me clear this up darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 25/01/2016 04:19:51 PM

I think Fionwe might be right on this one, if I've read the debate correctly.

It seems like all shields are the same in the series. Lanfear calls a shield a shield, and if there is any weave that passed down through the ages it would be that. Shields are always described in the same way - if they are very strong then the person describes them as a glass wall, and if they are weaker they bend.

The quote with Liandrin/Moghedien clearly represents the knot. The fact that Liandrin can identify it as a shield implies that shields are the same. We have seen Nynaeve unable to decipher what Moghedien is weaving as a counter example. We've also seen SH remove the Source from the FS, and they know it's not shielding.


I'm not really disputing this. I've been theorizing some options about the potential effectiveness of Shielding and why it is seemingly easier to Shield a woman than a man. In regards to the comment above, I'd argue that we've only really seen a handful of examples:

  1. Shield that have failed.

a. Verin's shield for Graendal, described as rebounded, clearly this is a shield that is neither strong enough nor sharp enough to cut through Graendal's connection. Conclusion: not enough information to tell how the actual weave was built, but it's a safe assumption that Verin used a traditional Aes Sedai Shielding method

b. Alanna and Verin's attempt to shield Rand. Basically the same as above

c. Nynaeve's attempt to shield Elayne. Described as akin to a sledge hammer coming down on an anvil or something along those lines. No reason to assume there was anything outside of the norm for general Aes Sedai Shielding.

  1. Shields that landed

a. Moghedien's shield on Liandrin. No description of the actual shield or weave itself. As you mention below the focus here is on the knot Moghedien uses. I'm theorizing that Moghedien could have also have used a different weaving for shielding than Aes Sedai used, because the Forsaken have vastly more knowledge and she was convinced that only another of the Forsaken could remove her shield. This strikes me as important because we know she's already aware of channelers of significant strength in the modern day and she is aware that Aes Sedai can link and therefore become strong enough to shatter any shield she could build, unless, of course she used a different weave that maybe is less susceptible to being overcome by mere strength alone. This doesn't seem far fetched to me because we've seen plenty of things that have multiple weaves (that have a variety of effectiveness levels): Healing, Traveling, Fireballs, Weather ... in fact it seems rather more far fetched to me that Shielding from the AoL would be the same as modern Aes Sedai considering that there is an entire Ajah dedicated to Healing and they only managed to save the most basic forms of the ability.



Liandrin then goes on saying that the complexity of the knot is horrific and she loses sight of it. Moghedien says only the FS can unravel it - it's clearly about the knot and the not the technique. We've seen Osan'gar I think say that he could unravel any shield with time, so that goes against the technique and more about the knot being the way past shielding.

Well, given that any idiot would be able to understand that she had been shielded, how else would Liandrin or the others identify what had been done to her?

Tied off weaves are obviously a different conversation since they are inherently more "at risk" for being escaped and a skilled channeler would clearly be more likely to figure out how to unravel a knot. Again, that has nothing to do with the Weave itself.


If you sharpen the edges of the shield you sever the person. That much is made clear with Nynaeve's duel with Moghedien. We also know that Asmodean severed his mother so it's likely Nynaeve's claim about this subject is not dubious and it can be done by an individual.

No one is arguing this.


Berowin says that she has 'honed her skills over time'. I think she does the exact opposite. I think she makes her weaves blunt and soft, and they bend like elastic bands. It is similar to Rand encountering soft spots when the AS held him and him saying that they can't be broken. This of course takes time and practice to master.

You are hitting on my entire point here. I believe that there are more effective ways to shield a significantly stronger channeler than yourself, just like there are multiple Healing weaves that are more effective than others and more than one weave for Traveling (Aviendha learned that the hard way because she now suffers from the second weave rule with Traveling). The point I've been making to Fionwe is that it's very possible Lanfear and Graendal both used more effective Shielding techniques to block and hold significantly stronger (in raw terms) males.

I've been theorizing that the Red Ajah probably discovered a form of Shielding that was effective for Shielding men, as long as there were groups of women available and in typical Aes Sedai fashion decided that was the best way to deal with any channeler. Thus we have Aes Sedai shields that are clearly only effective at holding weaker channelers. now we look at Berowin, who with a mere dribble of OP can shield a Forsaken level woman without any kind of effort and we clearly see that she's come up with a different weave that is flexible, when all other shields we've seen are rigid. Makes you wonder if that's more akin to what Lanfear did to Asmodean. It would explain a bit of how he could have a shield on him that allowed a dribble of power but still prevent him from simply shattering the shield or unravelling a knot. A flexible shield with a tiny hole would require more effort to rip apart that something rigid with a crack already in it. Basically instead of being able to chip away at the crack and make it bigger with each successive attempt, Asmodean would be stuck with a shield that constantly restricted back to it's original form so each time he accessed the OP he'd be starting from zero.


If Berowin tied off her shield then Rand would probably be able to break it, but only by unravelling the knot. Her weave per se is invincible due to its durability. Moghedien's trick would not work on Rand or other educated channelers. You can unravel a horrible knot, it just takes time. Heaven knows how long - maybe Rand would need hours or days on Liandrin's weave? This is obviously why Rand didn't shield Semirhage and perform a complex knot - he knows she'll eventually escape.

Again, no argument here. Personally I think Rand would simply be able to overwhelm a traditional shield placed on him by any single female channeler based on sheer strength. However, we have no concept of how effective Berowyn's technique would be when tied off.


Lanfear's shield on Asmodean is a partial shield. It's identical to hiding your ability and partially hiding your ability like Mesaana did, in a way. His shield is probably difficult to break because he can't cause that gradient between himself and the True Source, and as she said, there is obviously some pain involved, though I'm not sure what this is because we've never seen similar 'pain'. It's possible he needs to try and draw his maximum but because of the partial shield it feels like overdrawing, and thus the extreme pain of overdrawing. The shield will eventually buckle but he won't subject himself to this. It's also likely she lied about the shield dissipating.

I'm not sure why you think this comparable to partially hiding one's ability. But ultimately I don't disagree with this POV. But I do believe Lanfear's shield is an example of there clearly being multiple ways to weave effective shields and that these methods were lost post Breaking.


It seems like there are only two real types of shields in the story - shields for men and women. Rand himself said he couldn't remember how to shield a woman, so the technique is probably different. If you sharpen the edges with skill or a circle you can sever someone.

I think there are more than 2 as we've seen at least 3

  1. Traditional Aes Sedai shield
  2. Lanfear's shield on Asmodean
  3. Berowyn's technique

I think the point you make about sharpening edges is simply about severing not truly about shielding (or not only anyway) ... In fact we've seen other ways to sever individuals as well, just look at how Rand severed the women at Dumai's Wells and we know he crushed them with fists of power rather than sliced them with knife sharp flows.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Angreal, Sa'angreal and Moiraine at 66 - 11/01/2016 08:53:23 AM 2140 Views
Or we can choose to assume Elayne is incorrect - 11/01/2016 03:50:14 PM 1009 Views
Uhhh... - 12/01/2016 12:07:42 AM 1133 Views
Yet there are problems with either - 15/01/2016 08:52:04 PM 823 Views
Re: Yet there are problems with either - 16/01/2016 05:29:11 AM 1084 Views
Would you consider... - 17/01/2016 09:06:59 AM 945 Views
random thought on Shielding - 19/01/2016 07:34:20 PM 1005 Views
You're forgetting the other side, though. - 19/01/2016 08:19:59 PM 1068 Views
yes but it doesn't proactively do this - 19/01/2016 10:06:25 PM 931 Views
Responding to a shield doesn't require proactiveness - 20/01/2016 05:53:24 AM 826 Views
it's a visualization thing really - 20/01/2016 04:39:08 PM 880 Views
Not the crux of the debate... - 21/01/2016 03:37:40 AM 969 Views
Not really though - 21/01/2016 05:00:34 PM 736 Views
I always explained it as - 21/01/2016 09:26:35 PM 973 Views
There's not much to go on since all the shields except Berowyn's are the same - 21/01/2016 09:55:14 PM 842 Views
That's precisely my point - 21/01/2016 10:09:02 PM 985 Views
now you are speculating based on a lack of evidence - 21/01/2016 10:39:13 PM 806 Views
There's actual evidence: - 22/01/2016 06:25:25 AM 997 Views
what's dense here is that you keep putting in quotes that don't support your position - 22/01/2016 03:28:16 PM 1116 Views
Whoa.. - 22/01/2016 04:24:19 PM 1067 Views
Not at all - 22/01/2016 05:03:50 PM 1010 Views
Wonderful - 22/01/2016 06:30:35 PM 986 Views
yup that's my argument. that and you're a dick so I'm done with this - 22/01/2016 06:46:23 PM 803 Views
Re: yup that's my argument. that and you're a dick so I'm done with this - 23/01/2016 02:35:33 PM 1102 Views
Petty much *NM* - 24/01/2016 02:50:32 PM 445 Views
Hmmm.... - 23/01/2016 03:06:15 PM 1052 Views
Let me clear this up - 25/01/2016 04:19:51 PM 1191 Views
Some more quotes - 25/01/2016 05:10:51 PM 951 Views
none of which I've denied or tried to prove otherwise - 25/01/2016 07:19:48 PM 1242 Views
Re: none of which I've denied or tried to prove otherwise - 26/01/2016 03:45:52 AM 1016 Views
Re: none of which I've denied or tried to prove otherwise - 26/01/2016 09:00:55 AM 1160 Views
Re: none of which I've denied or tried to prove otherwise - 26/01/2016 10:39:49 AM 948 Views
Oh well then I agree with you - 26/01/2016 08:50:55 AM 1061 Views
thanks - 26/01/2016 04:26:46 PM 1220 Views
Yes, but that's not what I'm arguing... - 16/01/2016 08:56:15 AM 786 Views
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Don't those two facts explain each other? - 16/01/2016 03:24:44 PM 857 Views
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Simple - 19/01/2016 08:21:11 PM 925 Views
Not at all - 19/01/2016 10:17:39 PM 711 Views
Huh? - 20/01/2016 06:01:04 AM 924 Views
agree to disagree I suppose ... I don't see it this way *NM* - 20/01/2016 04:41:16 PM 500 Views
I didn't sense disagreement so much as confusion over my position. *NM* - 21/01/2016 12:01:16 AM 479 Views
Re: I didn't sense disagreement so much as confusion over my position. - 21/01/2016 02:07:21 AM 827 Views
Re: I didn't sense disagreement so much as confusion over my position. - 21/01/2016 03:32:59 AM 845 Views
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Re: I don't see how magnifiers solve this - 21/01/2016 10:16:16 PM 847 Views
Uhhh... - 22/01/2016 06:51:11 AM 994 Views
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The very first chapter (the Prologue) disproves this - 03/10/2016 06:56:28 AM 789 Views
No it doesn't - 05/10/2016 12:47:03 AM 683 Views
Re: Don't those two facts explain each other? - 08/10/2016 05:06:53 AM 584 Views
Re: Yes, but that's not what I'm arguing... - 08/10/2016 04:52:06 AM 801 Views

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