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Re: none of which I've denied or tried to prove otherwise Sidious Send a noteboard - 26/01/2016 09:00:55 AM

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and none of which prove a damn thing about the specifics of the weaves,

Seriously? You are going to continue to insist that noting can be proven by the fact that shields used by Forsaken women against men and women are just called walls, exactly the word used to describe shields by Aes Sedai? Nothing?

You stated:

A shield for a man would need to be constructed in a way that would allow for the very aggressive flow of saidin, while a shield for a woman would need to be more flexible to allow for the more immersive flow of saidar

Doesn't the fact that Lanfear's shield for Rand, and Moghdien's shield for Nynaeve, and Rand's shield for Egwene are all called walls disproved that "shields for women would need to be more flexible"?

only that the shields are hard to break and do not seem flexible.

Precisely. But this is exactly what you said would be the case, so I'm at a loss as to why you also state the quotes prove nothing.

I'm attempting a theoretical discussion here. Berowyn proves the point that vastly more effective shields are possible and that Shields can ALSO be flexible. Nothing more and nothing less. Why is this simple concept so difficult for you to grasp?

But that was not what you contended. You said that Forsaken must weave shields like this on women, and shields like walls on men. I only quoted to show you that that was simply not the case. Barring Berowin, we have never seen a flexible shield. But we HAVE seen inflexible ones from the Forsaken, used against both women AND men. We've seen a Forsaken (though this was Brandon's writing, so grain of salt here) shield both a man and a woman at the same time, and make no distinction about the weaves.

AND we know that the True Power, entirely alien and different from both Saidin AND saidar, can also be blocked by a One Power shield, straight from Jordan's mouth.

Which is why I've been arguing that there's plenty of evidence to show that how saidin flows into men and saidar into women doesn't mean the optimal shields need to be different.

The second concept is that it's theoretically possible that a stone wall shield is more effective against a man and a more flexible shield is more effective against a woman. I say this solely based on the fact that Berowyn's flexible shield is vastly more effective than the standard shields we see used against a woman than any other shield we see throughout the entire series. I cannot, and have not stated that a flexible shield would be more effective against a man.

But what is the basis, in the text, that such a distinction is known to the Forsaken? THAT is what I've been arguing.

Separately, I would also argue that as far as I can tell, nothing about Berowin's shield seems female-specific. I suspect a man would find it hard to break a flexible shield too. According to Berowin's entry in the Companion:

When Nynaeve and Elayne went to the Kin house in Ebou Dar, Berowin shielded the pair with no trouble, her shield bending and ballooning, which it should not have done, without breaking.

The very point of her shield seems to be that even when under the heavy pressure of a much stronger channeler's power, the shield just bends instead of shattering. When Rand breaks the Aes Sedai shield:

When he reached for saidin, the invisible barrier was still there, but it no longer seemed stone or brick. It gave as he pressed, bending under his pressure, bending, bending. Suddenly it tore apart before him like rotted cloth.

This is precisely what Berowin's shield doesn't do, so it seems quite easy for me to see that her shield would be effective on men too. She seemed to feel no effort at holding Nynaeve, who is only 10 levels below Rand. Maybe it would be a little harder for Berowin to hold Rand, who knows, but that would be a function of his strength, I think, not about how saidin behaves differently from saidar.

I would assert, based on so many other examples outside of shielding, that during the AoL there were likely many variations on shielding that have probably been lost to post-Breaking channeling organizations.

Those so many examples, every one, has someone commenting on the difference. Be it Healing, or Compulsion, the superiority of the Forsaken's weave is very clearly mentioned. But several Forsaken have woven shields where channelers from this Age could see them, and yet not ONE comments on the difference?
This is loosely supported by both Lanfear and Graendal being vastly more effective at Shielding stronger males than anyone else we've seen.

None of this means they did not have a Talent for shileding. But I've seen nothing that says they use a different shield for a man than they would a woman, and quite a bit that says otherwise.
I am not, nor have I ever, refuted that they used "stone wall" or firm forms of Shielding,

Then can you explain to me why you said "walls can be made out of many different materials"?
only that they probably didn't use the same technique as modern Aes Sedai, who's Shields would have been instantly destroyed by a Forsaken level male.

Is there a modern Aes Sedai who's not Nynaeve yet has strengths similar to Graendal and Lanfear? Beyond that, we just have no instances of women shielding men of their strength range at all, so whether they would struggle more than the Forsaken would or not is completely unknown.

In fact we know for fact that Verin and Alanna linked are very close to, if not stronger than, Lanfear and their shielding attempts were a total joke, whereas Lanfear nearly succeeds, even before she picked up the angreal.

Look I have no issue with the idea that Lanfear is more skilled than Verin or Alanna. My problem is you saying that this means Lanfear uses a whole other kind of shield, specifically keyed to men.

Shielding is something we KNOW is very variable. Nynaeve is unable to shield Elayne in one book, then shields Talaan just fine. Was she using a different shield? And yes, I know Nynaeve is not a Forsaken, but my point is that despite several instances of Forsaken shields being used in front of modern channelers, no one comments on how theirs are different. Nynaeve, in fact, specifically says Moghedien was trying to cut her off in the same way, referring to her own shield.

On a side note, I will state that you are a massive hypocrite for using arguments about "ignoring direct quotes" ... no one on this forum dismisses direct quotes more than you when it suits their purposes. cough Aviendha's quotes about Egwene's strength.

But I have addressed that quote, not dismissed it. Apart from the fact tha Aviendha is someone who was new, we have a direct quote from Elza which gives the lie to Aviendha's quote. If you have some quote that shows that the ones I've provided can be interpreted differently, I'm happy to discuss it, but all you've done is consistently say they mean nothing!
So I'll make this simple so you can follow:
  1. We know a flexible shield enabled Berowyn to hold a woman 38 levels above her with little/no effort

  2. We know that Galina would easily be able to break Mecaras shield with a 13 level difference

These two points are addressed head on by the fact that Berowin has a Talent for shielding. She's like Androl with Gateways. This doesn't mean people who don't succeed like she does are doing it wrong!

3. Verin and Alanna linked could not shield Rand once he was holding the Power. Likely a maximum of 7 levels weaker than Rand.
  1. Graendal was able to cut off and hold a shield on both Aran'gar and Delana despite being 6 levels lower in raw strength

  2. Lanfear was capable of shielding Rand with 5-6 levels lower strength and she clearly used a more effective shield against Asmodean who was 4 levels stronger than her.

  3. Nynaeve was unable to cut off Elayne who was 6-8 levels weaker than Nynaeve

  4. Logain could have broken Nynaeve's shield with a maximum 7 level strength difference

  5. Rand broke through a shield held by 3 women who combined were at least his equal in raw strength given that Sashalle was a level 14, even two very weak Aes Sedai combined with her would have been stronger than Lanfear at the least.

It's not that difficult to realize that there are more effective ways to Shield someone, even someone massively stronger than you are, than used by modern Aes Sedai. It's just as obvious that the standard shields Aes Sedai teach are less effective than the shields used by Berowyn, Lanfear or Graendal. It seems likely that Moghedien's shield on Liandrin was probably a more effective shield as well, admittedly that is an assumption.

To counter this, we have:

1) Nynaeve WAS able to shield someone of her own strength, Talaan, and vice versa. Same with Moghedien.

2) Moiraine, at 6-7 levels below Merean, thought there was a chance her shield could land, and used it. Even when it didn't land, Moiraine tried again. Merean, already holding two people in flows of Air, could, according to Moiraine, shield Moiraine who was drawing as much as she could.

3) Egwene, who we know uses the exact same shielding weave Nynaeve does, had no issues shielding Sheriam, who is 6 levels weaker than her (so the same-ish as the Nynaeve-Elayne instance).

4) Ispan and Falion, exactly the same strength as Verin+Alanna, were able to shield and hold Nynaeve.

5) Nynaeve, while fighting Moghedien's shield, says it was the same as hers.

My point is, even within Aes Sedai, and women who must be using Aes Sedai shielding weaves, we see quite a lot of variation in shield placing. If you want to say Lanfear, Moghedien and Graendal have shielding Talents, I have no issue with that. But you're saying they weave a different shield, for which there's no evidence.

Berowin's shield is specifically called out as very different. It bends and flexes, and is not like a wall at all. Moghedien and Lanfear, at least, do not make such shields at all.

Shielding strikes me as something similar to Wards and thus there could be thousands of variations that would have just as many effectiveness levels. It seems, as with so many other things, like the Aes Sedai (likely the Reds) taught their traditional shielding weave and discouraged further study once they decided this was the most effective method.

But there are many wards since there are many things to do. And if a ward is distinct, or the weave for anything is distinct, RJ is quite good at having channelers point it out. Can you name one instance of a weave being different, yet never being noted in the books despite them not being inverted/reversed?

And could you explain why Nynaeve would not notice any difference in Moghedien's weaving, and go so far as to say she was trying to shield Nynaeve in the same way Nynaeve was trying to shield her?

Lastly, shielding seems like the last thing that would have been lost during the Breaking. It was the most fundamental weave for survival known to women of those times. I'm hugely skeptical there was a period where women forgot to shield, then had to reinvent it from scratch.

Okay but when Nynaeve shielded Logain she also described how her shield started to bend and almost break. Somehow Berowin has practiced her shielding so that it doesn't actually tear under any circumstances. This leaves the door open for better forms of shielding as I described in my post to Darius. If you can sever a person just by sharpening the edges then there is a lot of potential for tweaking.

We also have Suroth saying that Liandrin is "blocked in some way" and that may point to a different type of shield....? It's all reaching but there may be a science to shielding beyond "weave and throw".

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This message last edited by Sidious on 26/01/2016 at 09:01:45 AM
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Re: none of which I've denied or tried to prove otherwise - 26/01/2016 03:45:52 AM 916 Views
Re: none of which I've denied or tried to prove otherwise - 26/01/2016 09:00:55 AM 1019 Views
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