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Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM
Not even to get rid of a forsaken who might destablize it even more? I have never claimed that Rand did no damage, just that thanks to LTT and the knowledge of balefire he has from the WoP, he is better equipped to judge the damage done to the pattern than anyone else alive.


I'll have to say a big 'Meh' to this - LTT didn't understand a lot of things, one of which was A) how to defeat the Dark One and B) how to nullify the effect the Dark One had on the Pattern. I tend to think how the Pattern (and balefire) works are something that only the Creator (ie: Robert Jordan) ultimately knew.

I think this may be a situation similar to the mass-suicide of the Amayar wherein RJ was surprised more readers weren't affected by this in a more visceral way, but I think he may have underestimated exactly how many readers would quickly become apologists for whatever insane horror Rand unleashed because he is the "Hero"/main protagonist.

I think this is ultimately one of those sci-Fi author-lead questions like "Where is your humanity!?" and someone responds, "In the Fiction section. We go to Sci-Fi/fantasy to indulge our feelings of superiority, our need for clear heroes to root for and our need for violent spectacle."

From the WoT FAQ regarding balefire:
"John Walter Biles explains: The Pattern unravels permanently because in a war of mass destruction with balefire, you can yank threads out of the Pattern faster than they can be replaced. Yeah, they can EVENTUALLY be reborn, but unless the total population of all of creation is static, then they won't be reborn instantly. More importantly, it screws up causality. That's why the Pattern can unravel; it's not that you run out of threads, it is that if you nuke an entire city, every consequence of every action by everyone in the entire city is suddenly undone back to point X. Given the amount of balefire nuking a city takes, you can make quite a mess. Do enough damage to the Pattern faster than it can repair itself, and it still comes apart."

The reason I post that explanation is that it isn't the who, what, when and where that seems to matter, it is the effect of burning out large populations with balefire that causing the Pattern to unravel. So the magnitude of what Rand did really wasn't lessened because he might have killed Graendal - it was worse because he was messing with the laws of time and space.
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
This message last edited by RugbyPlayingAshaman on 07/01/2010 at 12:10:34 AM
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1940 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 1406 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 1348 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1387 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 1284 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 1196 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 1283 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 1185 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 1170 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 1141 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 1143 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 1110 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 1136 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 1129 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 1233 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 1157 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 1245 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 1198 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 1213 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 1143 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 1217 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 1117 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 1237 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 1242 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 1190 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 1266 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 1082 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 1269 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 605 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 1145 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 1143 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 1110 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 609 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 1085 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 605 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 1128 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 1062 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 1227 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 1198 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 1179 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 1171 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 1185 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 1154 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 1285 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 1111 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 1261 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 1106 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 1163 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 1130 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 1144 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 1161 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 1098 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 1177 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 1139 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 1060 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 1208 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 1193 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 1202 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 1100 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 1158 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 1045 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 1069 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 1250 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 1101 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 1077 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 1180 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 1147 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 1138 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 1205 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 1061 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 1108 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 1199 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 1090 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 1256 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 1206 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 1134 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 1194 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 1092 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 1212 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 1165 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 1157 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 1110 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 1161 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 1349 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1470 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 1046 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 1092 Views

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