Active Users:1951 Time:01/08/2026 03:14:12 PM
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM
Not even to get rid of a forsaken who might destablize it even more? I have never claimed that Rand did no damage, just that thanks to LTT and the knowledge of balefire he has from the WoP, he is better equipped to judge the damage done to the pattern than anyone else alive.


I'll have to say a big 'Meh' to this - LTT didn't understand a lot of things, one of which was A) how to defeat the Dark One and B) how to nullify the effect the Dark One had on the Pattern. I tend to think how the Pattern (and balefire) works are something that only the Creator (ie: Robert Jordan) ultimately knew.

I think this may be a situation similar to the mass-suicide of the Amayar wherein RJ was surprised more readers weren't affected by this in a more visceral way, but I think he may have underestimated exactly how many readers would quickly become apologists for whatever insane horror Rand unleashed because he is the "Hero"/main protagonist.

I think this is ultimately one of those sci-Fi author-lead questions like "Where is your humanity!?" and someone responds, "In the Fiction section. We go to Sci-Fi/fantasy to indulge our feelings of superiority, our need for clear heroes to root for and our need for violent spectacle."

From the WoT FAQ regarding balefire:
"John Walter Biles explains: The Pattern unravels permanently because in a war of mass destruction with balefire, you can yank threads out of the Pattern faster than they can be replaced. Yeah, they can EVENTUALLY be reborn, but unless the total population of all of creation is static, then they won't be reborn instantly. More importantly, it screws up causality. That's why the Pattern can unravel; it's not that you run out of threads, it is that if you nuke an entire city, every consequence of every action by everyone in the entire city is suddenly undone back to point X. Given the amount of balefire nuking a city takes, you can make quite a mess. Do enough damage to the Pattern faster than it can repair itself, and it still comes apart."

The reason I post that explanation is that it isn't the who, what, when and where that seems to matter, it is the effect of burning out large populations with balefire that causing the Pattern to unravel. So the magnitude of what Rand did really wasn't lessened because he might have killed Graendal - it was worse because he was messing with the laws of time and space.
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
This message last edited by RugbyPlayingAshaman on 07/01/2010 at 12:10:34 AM
Reply to message
Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1875 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 1291 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 1278 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1310 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 1214 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 1125 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 1204 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 1106 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 1101 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 1069 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 1073 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 1033 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 1070 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 1050 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 1164 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 1074 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 1174 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 1110 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 1149 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 1076 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 1144 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 1052 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 1170 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 1174 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 1125 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 1205 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 1012 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 1199 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 566 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 1069 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 1077 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 1040 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 573 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 1014 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 566 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 1055 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 994 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 1151 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 1125 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 1102 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 1091 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 1107 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 1086 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 1193 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 1045 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 1171 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 1013 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 1085 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 1069 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 1081 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 1098 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 1030 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 1102 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 1072 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 987 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 1139 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 1113 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 1129 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 1043 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 1078 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 980 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 1003 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 1181 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 1019 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 1007 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 1103 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 1073 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 1066 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 1141 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 994 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 1035 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 1114 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 1023 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 1190 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 1136 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 1076 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 1103 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 1023 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 1139 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 1096 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 1088 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 1021 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 1099 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 1282 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1404 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 983 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 1018 Views

Reply to Message