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I'd go with this - he lost sight of the forest for enumerating the trees. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 01/03/2010 08:21:39 PM

TGS (A Place to Begin) - "Is that what made you turn to his side?" Rand asked. "You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?"

Was anyone struck by this statement?

I've always thought this was what snared Ishamael, and to see it written in plain text was striking to me. Ishamael is so intelligent and thinks everything through so deeply, that he arrives at conclusions that seem illogical. It's like someone who becomes hysterical when presented with 1+1, insisting that it's 2 instantly, whereas a brilliant mathematician has alternate theories.

In this same way, we all automatically know that the DO is evil, but Elan got caught up in complex philosophy. He's still caught up in it.

It's an interesting statement, and personifies Ishamael for me.


Is Ishamael really more intelligent than Aginor - the genius mad scientist? Or Graendal, the foremost psychologist in the world? Or Demandred, the man who has an IQ of 160 compared to Lews Therin's 170, according to RJ?

I don't necessarily think so. Ishamael is different because he is a theologian and philosopher. He looks at the world with different eyes and from a different perspective than the other super intelligent members of the Forsaken. This doesn't mean that he is smarter than them. It just means that his area of expertise happens to be most suitable to understanding the Dark One.

Aginor's specialist area is biology. Graendal's is psychology. Demandred's is leadership, military strategy and politics.

Ishamael's is the study of good and evil. Exactly what is needed to understand the Dark One. He may not understand biology as well as Aginor, the human mind as well as Graendal, political and military strategy as well as Demandred. But he understands the nature of good and evil better than anyone.

That's all.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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Ishamael's nature Sidious - 01/03/2010 05:27:48 PM 1847 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature Watcher - 01/03/2010 07:15:54 PM 864 Views
Sisyphus *NM* damookster - 02/03/2010 02:27:06 AM 303 Views
Not a question of intelligence. Rather, a different way of thinking... Shannow - 01/03/2010 07:23:37 PM 890 Views
I'd go with this - he lost sight of the forest for enumerating the trees. Cannoli - 01/03/2010 08:21:39 PM 964 Views
I agree, except with your statement on what Ishamael's area of expertise is ... Shishka - 02/03/2010 03:17:13 PM 708 Views
Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil Sidious - 02/03/2010 04:38:06 PM 745 Views
Are you saying that philosophers are inherently more intelligent than other academics? Shannow - 02/03/2010 04:53:13 PM 636 Views
Maybe Sidious - 02/03/2010 06:00:20 PM 702 Views
Crap File Leader - 02/03/2010 08:58:12 PM 683 Views
That high IQ should make you realise that I am making the same point you are... Shannow - 02/03/2010 09:53:59 PM 649 Views
I think the averages are averages. Kieran - 03/03/2010 01:14:41 AM 619 Views
Re: Crap RugbyPlayingAshaman - 05/03/2010 08:46:56 PM 584 Views
Re: Crap mogi67 - 07/03/2010 11:36:16 PM 570 Views
I love IQ tests. Fanatic-Templar - 08/03/2010 01:18:10 AM 553 Views
Re: Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil Shishka - 02/03/2010 05:30:43 PM 666 Views
Re: Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil Sidious - 02/03/2010 06:01:41 PM 663 Views
Re: Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil mogi67 - 07/03/2010 11:31:14 PM 602 Views
I'm not an expert on nihilism, but ... Shishka - 08/03/2010 05:22:33 PM 750 Views
I doubt that. Fanatic-Templar - 08/03/2010 01:21:32 AM 571 Views
Re: I doubt that. car'a'aman - 08/03/2010 12:41:43 PM 557 Views
Yep, I agree. Shishka - 08/03/2010 05:58:03 PM 661 Views
This ties in with his parallel to Lucifer. Kieran - 03/03/2010 12:57:37 AM 643 Views
Re: Not a question of intelligence. Rather, a different way of thinking... BlackAdder - 02/03/2010 07:22:58 PM 613 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature newyorkersedai - 02/03/2010 01:49:19 AM 683 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature car'a'aman - 02/03/2010 02:51:44 PM 643 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature newyorkersedai - 02/03/2010 07:31:32 PM 609 Views
Both of us are saying the same thing car'a'aman - 03/03/2010 01:46:57 PM 579 Views
sorry, took "evil" too literally and newyorkersedai - 03/03/2010 07:02:01 PM 552 Views
Found a great theory about Ishamael and his logic on theoryland car'a'aman - 02/03/2010 02:48:02 PM 1063 Views
Nice Sidious - 02/03/2010 04:41:05 PM 619 Views
Impressive newyorkersedai - 02/03/2010 07:24:09 PM 614 Views
I have to disagree on one thing, at the very least... Fanatic-Templar - 08/03/2010 01:47:47 AM 618 Views
Re: I have to disagree on one thing, at the very least... car'a'aman - 08/03/2010 12:37:27 PM 570 Views
Yes, but Shai'tan himself is outside the Pattern. Fanatic-Templar - 08/03/2010 06:23:19 PM 602 Views
Re: Yes, but Shai'tan himself is outside the Pattern. car'a'aman - 09/03/2010 01:54:26 PM 605 Views
Because there is a Creator. Fanatic-Templar - 09/03/2010 05:57:16 PM 543 Views
faulty assumptions car'a'aman - 10/03/2010 05:05:23 AM 553 Views
Impossible. Fanatic-Templar - 10/03/2010 06:22:43 AM 555 Views
maybe an analogy will help car'a'aman - 10/03/2010 12:55:37 PM 959 Views
But therein lies the problem. Fanatic-Templar - 10/03/2010 04:58:42 PM 537 Views
your own argument is self defeating car'a'aman - 11/03/2010 08:10:36 AM 571 Views
No, that past was created after he was imprisoned. Fanatic-Templar - 11/03/2010 05:43:08 PM 575 Views
*sigh* I guess we will just have to agree to disagree then.... I still think your theory is flawed *NM* car'a'aman - 12/03/2010 05:11:10 AM 254 Views
Anyway I just realized this point is irrelevant to the original theory car'a'aman - 11/03/2010 08:14:20 AM 537 Views
Yes, I said that at the very beginning: *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 11/03/2010 05:44:19 PM 256 Views
Your reasons and mine for irrelevancy are different.. *NM* car'a'aman - 12/03/2010 05:12:52 AM 244 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/03/2010 10:43:16 PM 627 Views
I don't know if this has any basis in fact... Napoleon62 - 04/03/2010 02:44:26 AM 734 Views
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