Active Users:330 Time:17/06/2025 06:36:12 PM
Re: Excellent point. fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 20/09/2009 12:21:21 AM

This is actually GRRM's attitude in the first place. To be honest, I'd probably not even get involved in the debate (and my plan at the moment is to not do so once the same discussions inevitably begin over Book 6, which will be about 2 weeks before ADWD even comes out) if other people close to George were not getting quite annoyed about the false information being spread out there.

Frankly, I don't see what you can do about false information. People have screamed themselves hoarse in defense, but people will continue to believe that CoT is one long bath scene and that GRRM is gorging on popcorn as he watches movies all day instead of writing aDwD.

Frankly, I think we can see a trend here. From limited participation in fantasy message boards, I can see that bitching and moaning about various authors is a powerfully addictive pass time. Be it Tolkien's apparently questionable handling of race and women or Jordan being a sellout or Martin being disenchanted with aSoIaF or plain lazy, and similar accusations against Rothfuss and Lynch, there seems to be a realization among the internet community that if they raise a furor over the issue, someone higher up in the publishing grapevine will notice, or else loyal fans will be pissed, and in the yelling matches that follow, the cynics can be snide and sneery and come out thinking they've made a big point.

By all means, I don't think every skeptic or critic is this way. But certainly, you see this kind of criticism go out of hand way too often. The utter looniness of saying that an author may die before he completes the series in his own blog is astonishing, yet it has happened.

This is another point I would be interested to see people discuss more: is the key problem that the author is too much of a perfectionist and cannot let go of the material? ASoS, by most accounts the best book in the series, was written in a little more than two years. So WTF is up with AFFC and ADWD?

And I think the answer to that is to do with the whole structure of the series and the decision to radically change the structure mid-flow and the subsequent new decision (made after the promise ADWD would be out in a year) to re-structure the series again so it would be a bit faster and wouldn't sprawl.

But again, we don't see a huge amount of discussion about that either.

Yup. Personally, I was a great fan of the five year gap. Martin's statement that too much would have to be explained by flashback always seemed a little thin to me.
Imagine returning to characters you knew so well, or thought you did, after five years in their life. The basic characteristics may still be there, but the changes in their persona offer a vast chance for an author to keep the reader strongly engaged, wondering what happened to cause such drastic changes. He can give out information in dribbles, plant mysteries and motivations in the past, and in general, make a rich and interesting story.
Not that it would be easy, but I think aSoIaF, with its strong characters, would have benefited vastly from this kind of spacing in the story. It also has the excellent advantage of letting the author do literally what her wants with regards to the placement of his characters.
Sad that GRRM chose to abandon that path.

Interesting. In effect, Jordan and Martin have faced the same problem and Jordan's answer was to write his way out of it (so new material was still coming out) whilst Martin's is to edit and rewrite his way out of it, which means no new material is actually released in the meantime. As you say, the question is which approach is better.

Its thorny. Some, of course, would say the problem is endemic in epic fantasy, and both authors should simply have trimmed the number of PoV characters. But I admire the complexity and depth both have been able to give their world and story, and that has been achieved primarily through the means of a very diverse cast.

For Jordan, things might have worked out if he had simply left out some characters from certain books, like Perrin from WH and Ekayne from CoT. But maybe not, since his leaving out Mat in tPoD was not well received either.

Certainly, I don't see a five year gap making sense in WoT. The story is too continuous to be able to take that, though it would have been great to see the cast after five years.

As for re-editing, I think the only thing editable with the last few books are certain characters and the amount of time Jordan spent on them. By themselves, their stories are still good and coherent. They just mesh horribly together, and what filler is there is positioned very unfortunately.

With Martin, we cannot comment till aDwD comes out. While I can speculate, I'm entirely uncertain which players GRRM wants interacting before the end. Unlike WoT, they do not have the advantage of having grown up together. He will need to give time for new alliances to mature and make sense, for new conflicts to fit within the overall plot of his story. And if the five or more years he takes to figure all this out helps him resolve the issues, then more power to him. But I'm afraid that if aDwD were to be below par in the way aFFC was, entirely too many people will claim aSoIaF is a doomed series.

If ASoIaF is eventually completed and the rewriting approach pays off and the final three books are as well-received as the first three, then that decision will be validated, as ASoIaF will be left as a 7-book series with a slightly below-par book right in the middle. The problem WoT faces is that even if books 12-14 are mindblowingly brilliant, the series is still going to have the rep of there being at least 3 (or more, depending on viewpoint) books which are quite weak, damaging its overall perception. GRRM's approach, whilst frustrating to readers right now, is probably the better one in the long run.

In the long run, though, fewer people will read the latter WoT books or aSoIaF books after long gaps where anticipation grows to fever pitch. And that will go a long way in removing tage like "worst fantasay book of all time" from books like CoT, and aFFC will also be more positively viewed, IMO. These books aren't like Erikson's, where timelines, plots and characters seem to have no connection at all with events in previous books. Read as a whole, I think both series will stand strong enough that their long term popularity is more or less assured.

Unless of course the later books take ages to come out and then they suck, in which case he's in real trouble ;)

I cannot believe they will literally "suck". They might not match aSoS, say, but that is entirely acceptable. A series with one such book is rare enough.
As for the "trouble" he will face, I think it will be short lived. The characters and stories in aSoIaF are iconic enough that over time, minor quibbles over delays and supposed drops in quality will not matter so much.
Reply to message
Now I understand why everyone has been bitching about a Dance of Dragons.... - 18/09/2009 12:36:21 AM 1203 Views
Welcome my son....welcome to the machine...... *NM* - 18/09/2009 03:06:36 AM 374 Views
lol Nice. *NM* - 20/09/2009 12:28:08 AM 330 Views
It's not just that. He split A Feast for Crows into two. - 18/09/2009 03:10:35 AM 500 Views
Re: It's not just that. He split A Feast for Crows into two. *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:04:06 AM 409 Views
Titles - 18/09/2009 04:15:24 AM 469 Views
Ok, Martin is published by Bantam...replace "Tor" with "Bantam" - 18/09/2009 05:43:51 PM 490 Views
Nope, still doesn't work. - 18/09/2009 08:49:09 PM 462 Views
Re: Nope, still doesn't work. - 18/09/2009 10:46:59 PM 354 Views
Is this the thread in which you'll FINALLY reveal... - 20/09/2009 12:31:49 AM 384 Views
Remember what The Neil said: "GRRM is not your bitch!" *NM* - 18/09/2009 07:32:47 AM 374 Views
I don't give a shit what Neil Gaiman thinks - 18/09/2009 05:35:54 PM 382 Views
Gaiman = The Most Overrated Author of the New Milennium. *NM* - 20/09/2009 12:33:10 AM 349 Views
In your opinion, of course. *NM* - 20/09/2009 01:28:33 AM 341 Views
Yes, and this entire thread deals with opinions. - 20/09/2009 01:52:21 AM 335 Views
I see the reason in that. - 20/09/2009 02:13:46 AM 520 Views
He might be a good comic book author, I don't know - 20/09/2009 03:05:15 AM 402 Views
I see where there might be a misunderstanding. - 20/09/2009 03:05:24 AM 454 Views
You're the man, Wert. - 20/09/2009 03:29:41 AM 432 Views
Still ruling WOT, I see. How's that going? *NM* - 18/09/2009 03:26:15 AM 322 Views
Very well, thanks - 18/09/2009 04:05:16 AM 402 Views
One thing I got to say about Robert Jordan... - 18/09/2009 03:40:20 AM 506 Views
Sometimes ... - 18/09/2009 05:07:18 AM 426 Views
I agree! - 18/09/2009 01:39:04 PM 417 Views
Sometimes...Neil Gaiman should be thrown into a meat grinder. - 18/09/2009 05:49:56 PM 463 Views
You paid for a product. You got a product. That is the end of the matter in its entirety. - 18/09/2009 09:03:05 PM 422 Views
Was this well out of line, by any chance? - 18/09/2009 10:25:57 PM 459 Views
damn you are rude *NM* - 18/09/2009 10:51:19 PM 333 Views
Gosh. This is pretty tiring. - 18/09/2009 11:25:51 PM 476 Views
So this guy still hasn't been banned yet, why exactly? - 19/09/2009 04:13:05 PM 430 Views
For several reasons. *NM* - 19/09/2009 10:15:38 PM 318 Views
Get off your high horse. Someone disagrees with you. Deal with it. *NM* - 20/09/2009 12:35:24 AM 322 Views
No, this guy is breaching the forum rules on attacks and insults. - 20/09/2009 02:57:20 AM 367 Views
What would you call a good start? - 20/09/2009 03:25:46 AM 352 Views
Oh please. Grow some thicker skin. - 20/09/2009 03:26:33 AM 365 Views
You think this behaviour would have been tolerated on Wotmania? It definitely would not have been. - 20/09/2009 03:31:20 AM 394 Views
That is factually incorrect. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:38:06 AM 324 Views
"It" would have been. "It" was. - 20/09/2009 05:45:14 AM 399 Views
Depends on which section of wotmania you're thinking about - 20/09/2009 06:54:00 AM 394 Views
Precisely. *NM* - 20/09/2009 07:30:12 AM 319 Views
I half agree... - 20/09/2009 04:35:22 AM 383 Views
What's with the ad hominems, Tom? - 20/09/2009 06:57:33 AM 360 Views
Irony overdose. Again. - 19/09/2009 06:28:49 AM 366 Views
WTF? - 20/09/2009 01:49:23 AM 410 Views
- 20/09/2009 03:00:53 AM 402 Views
that would be very counter productive - 18/09/2009 10:50:01 PM 355 Views
Depends on what you want. - 18/09/2009 11:26:54 PM 349 Views
That's the most valid point of the argument. - 18/09/2009 11:54:26 PM 399 Views
Agreed. - 19/09/2009 03:02:48 AM 381 Views
Now to me that supports Tom's point about 'reliance theory'. - 19/09/2009 05:55:28 PM 401 Views
But a promise was never made. - 19/09/2009 06:04:55 PM 392 Views
I think we're hung up on the definition of "promise." - 19/09/2009 07:14:30 PM 363 Views
Who is GGK and where is his article? + my opinion on Martin - 19/09/2009 07:55:01 PM 408 Views
This is where the great divide comes into play - 19/09/2009 08:10:09 PM 390 Views
I think he should take a page out of RJ's book - 19/09/2009 08:36:55 PM 425 Views
Excellent point. - 19/09/2009 10:09:36 PM 375 Views
Re: Excellent point. - 20/09/2009 12:21:21 AM 395 Views
That would be the best policy. *NM* - 19/09/2009 11:23:48 PM 298 Views
Re: Who is GGK and where is his article? + my opinion on Martin - 19/09/2009 11:22:25 PM 443 Views
Re: I think we're hung up on the definition of "promise." - 19/09/2009 08:04:53 PM 370 Views
Exceptions prove the rule... - 19/09/2009 08:42:39 PM 354 Views
Re: Exceptions prove the rule... - 19/09/2009 10:00:35 PM 351 Views
I think we're winding down here. - 20/09/2009 07:41:15 AM 344 Views
Yeah. - 19/09/2009 11:27:04 PM 408 Views
Don't mind me, I just can't post in the right place. *NM* - 19/09/2009 07:13:25 PM 353 Views