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Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
By your account Logain would also judged Berowin as stronger than Nynaeve because she may be able to Shield him alone. That would be quiet the misconception. And in the case of two men who who are close in strength such as Rand and Logain (who it would be difficult to establish which is actually stronger from casual observation) Logain's statement is stupid. He's seen with his own eyes that a MUCH weak man, Androl, can make gateways on par with Rand so he clearly knows there is more to a gateway's size than simply the strength of the Channeler.

Where is your evidence that the Talent is rare? By all accounts in the books the Talent is actually abundant! We've seen that nearly all Channelers can Travel and we've heard that at least some, Flinn, have difficulty with it... IIRC Flinn should be able to make a larger gateway than he can. This example is probably meant to show is that Talent, or lack of it HAS an effect on Traveling and it goes both directions. There is a quote about "him not being like Androl" in there somewhere. Certainly strength is a factor, but Talent is much more likely the driver on gateway size (I think it's something of a multiplier ... Androl gets a +500% while Rand gets a +25% type of thing). Androl is clearly an outlier in his ability, but that ability illustrates the point that the Talent is what is important. It may be possible that a different weave would enable weaker Channelers to Travel.

Regardless Androl's ability proves that you cannot judge a Channelers strength by the size of a gateway.

Certainly Channelers link to achieve certain feats, but Talent with a flow would be a part of a link and we know in the AoL (BWB commentary) that strength was not the biggest factor in being chosen for a circle, rather ability was. Thus a man like Androl may have been attached to circles for mass transit, or Berowin for shielding etc ... It isn't their strength that is needed, it's their Talent.

Strength in a flow doesn't necessarily mean someone can channel more volume of that power than other flows, merely that they have a more refined touch with it or that it is "natural" to them. It's not like Egwene can channel 5x more Earth than she can Air ... Just that her Earth flows are much more pure than others. Kairen and Leane are two of the weakest AS in the Tower, yet they had more ability with making Cuendillar than anyone except Egwene. Strength was not the overcoming factor there as Nicola was likely stronger than either of these women at the time and Bode may well have been as well. Why weren't Romanda or Lelaine making it? By your rationale as stronger Channelers they should be able to compensate for their lack of Talent or flow affinity by adding power ... Romanda and Lelaine are about 3x the strength of Leane and Kairen, certainly they should be able to channel more volume of Earth into a weave ... Or why not simple secure angreal for Leane and Kairen and send them to the harbor chain? Likely because more Power wasn't what the needed.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3003 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1563 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1208 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1349 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1524 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1328 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1220 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1260 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1247 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1368 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1044 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1251 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1274 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1348 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1447 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1272 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 637 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1483 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1235 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1412 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1156 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1261 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1284 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1411 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1282 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1261 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1284 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1230 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1322 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1191 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1197 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1284 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1150 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1256 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1472 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1172 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1252 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1171 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1210 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1154 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1277 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1113 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1336 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1248 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1252 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1162 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1157 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1140 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1159 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1051 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1080 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1193 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1052 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1231 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1021 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1153 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1212 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1239 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1246 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1410 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1182 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1113 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 975 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1218 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1140 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1187 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1213 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1161 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1165 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1109 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1144 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1013 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1198 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1115 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1153 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1109 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1148 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1108 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1169 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1179 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1619 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1164 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1165 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1137 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1167 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 510 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1091 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1183 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1249 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1264 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1100 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 819 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1290 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1144 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1135 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1276 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1179 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1189 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1157 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1192 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1228 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1046 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1002 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1106 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1174 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1153 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 731 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1131 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1309 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1122 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1241 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1144 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1143 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1315 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1063 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1592 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1102 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1257 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1260 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1119 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1383 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1166 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1285 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1174 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1067 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1227 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1261 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1189 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1311 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1208 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1266 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 619 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1314 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1227 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1257 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1212 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1203 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1268 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1153 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1039 Views

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