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Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
By your account Logain would also judged Berowin as stronger than Nynaeve because she may be able to Shield him alone. That would be quiet the misconception. And in the case of two men who who are close in strength such as Rand and Logain (who it would be difficult to establish which is actually stronger from casual observation) Logain's statement is stupid. He's seen with his own eyes that a MUCH weak man, Androl, can make gateways on par with Rand so he clearly knows there is more to a gateway's size than simply the strength of the Channeler.

Where is your evidence that the Talent is rare? By all accounts in the books the Talent is actually abundant! We've seen that nearly all Channelers can Travel and we've heard that at least some, Flinn, have difficulty with it... IIRC Flinn should be able to make a larger gateway than he can. This example is probably meant to show is that Talent, or lack of it HAS an effect on Traveling and it goes both directions. There is a quote about "him not being like Androl" in there somewhere. Certainly strength is a factor, but Talent is much more likely the driver on gateway size (I think it's something of a multiplier ... Androl gets a +500% while Rand gets a +25% type of thing). Androl is clearly an outlier in his ability, but that ability illustrates the point that the Talent is what is important. It may be possible that a different weave would enable weaker Channelers to Travel.

Regardless Androl's ability proves that you cannot judge a Channelers strength by the size of a gateway.

Certainly Channelers link to achieve certain feats, but Talent with a flow would be a part of a link and we know in the AoL (BWB commentary) that strength was not the biggest factor in being chosen for a circle, rather ability was. Thus a man like Androl may have been attached to circles for mass transit, or Berowin for shielding etc ... It isn't their strength that is needed, it's their Talent.

Strength in a flow doesn't necessarily mean someone can channel more volume of that power than other flows, merely that they have a more refined touch with it or that it is "natural" to them. It's not like Egwene can channel 5x more Earth than she can Air ... Just that her Earth flows are much more pure than others. Kairen and Leane are two of the weakest AS in the Tower, yet they had more ability with making Cuendillar than anyone except Egwene. Strength was not the overcoming factor there as Nicola was likely stronger than either of these women at the time and Bode may well have been as well. Why weren't Romanda or Lelaine making it? By your rationale as stronger Channelers they should be able to compensate for their lack of Talent or flow affinity by adding power ... Romanda and Lelaine are about 3x the strength of Leane and Kairen, certainly they should be able to channel more volume of Earth into a weave ... Or why not simple secure angreal for Leane and Kairen and send them to the harbor chain? Likely because more Power wasn't what the needed.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2941 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1510 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1159 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1299 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1456 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1292 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1177 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1213 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1195 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1321 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 992 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1196 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1219 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1299 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1386 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1203 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 615 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1421 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1178 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1355 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1112 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1215 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1232 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1362 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1227 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1213 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1227 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1188 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1272 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1151 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1156 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1221 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1074 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1201 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1428 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1113 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1193 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1132 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1173 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1115 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1235 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1062 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1266 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1195 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1207 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1113 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1115 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1100 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1118 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1001 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1032 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1147 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1005 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1190 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 978 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1103 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1176 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1171 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1178 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1375 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1140 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1054 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 902 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1173 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1097 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1128 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1140 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1115 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1115 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1065 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1094 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 969 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1137 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1041 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1104 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1072 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1107 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1056 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1123 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1119 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1562 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1095 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1097 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1072 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1126 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 492 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1049 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1126 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1196 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1204 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1059 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 795 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1249 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1088 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1087 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1196 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1127 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1143 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1102 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1147 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1164 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 998 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 955 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1055 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1130 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1112 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 713 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1076 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1241 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1072 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1188 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1109 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1092 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1244 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1014 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1520 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1061 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1203 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1192 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1080 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1332 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1120 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1242 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1129 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1018 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1176 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1221 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1147 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1267 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1174 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1227 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 601 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1264 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1180 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1202 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1152 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1124 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1206 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1105 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 986 Views

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