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the text is not inconsistent. Onarishma Send a noteboard - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
Like making a ridiculous Gateway. But when fighting Demandred a mixed circle of 3 is no more powerful than he is, or when shielding Rand 4 women couldn't hold him, or when they said it took 6 to shield Logain and any fewer would not have been able too ... yet RJ also states that Talents don't "added" ... I'm arguing that the text is inconsistent not that circles should see an exponential increase in effectiveness ... they just don't always have that kind of increase.


our understanding is.

a circle of three is nothing compared to a circle of 13.

In regard to the power of the Cleansing circles.

First let's cover that the via Asmodean two average women match up to an average man. So the "actual" strength of that circle is approximately 4 women. Rand in his point of view believes that four AS, possibly linked, but possibly not, aren't a challenge. In fact he seems mostly concerned at 6. So if the total strength of the circle facing Demandred was about 4AS or 2AM if you want to compare to those who faced Sammael then technically they couldn't have been more than a nuisance. Even if Rand's estimation of four AS included the possibility of them linking the mixed gender increase to the circle brings the strength up even further than a regular link. This isn't inconsistent by being too strong or by being too weak. In regard to the increase in strength lower exponents aren't that significantly far from the base number 2^3=8 isn't that far from 2x3=6 but 2x13=26 definitely is a far far cry from 2^13=8192. Unless we can figure out the actual formula for a circle's increase in precision general understanding of exponents is all we can go on. So in my estimation, a three person circle with average channelers should not be drastically stronger than Rand or Demandred. I think because it was a mixed circle that they were even a contender.

Second the men and women at the Cleansing are new at it. You can't expect them to do a great job when its their first time.

Moving on to the 6 AS needed to take down Logain and Rand. First there is the evidence that AS use multiple shields to capture men by Rand's six soft points. And this is supported by Cadsuane's decision to fight the bubble of evil separately instead of linking. In a circle non-channeling members are vulnerable. The benefit of the link would require that linked women be close enough to use that link without getting picked off. And while hunting down a powerful man may benefit from super effective weaves, the AS oaths would also restrict them from the kinds of attacks they could make to get to him. I believe the main reason the folks at the Cleansing linked had more to do with the mixed gender of the Forsaken they'd be fighting than it being the best combat strategy.

So to recap the effectiveness of a three person link is at the bottom of the exponential effect and so expecting the Cleansing circles to decimate the Forsaken is expecting too much. And there is at least some evidence that AS strategy does not include linking during a battle and definitely some evidence that men are multi-shielded not shielded by a circle at least not once captured.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2743 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1278 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 956 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1101 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1170 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1091 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 960 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1007 Views
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Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1127 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 764 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 994 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1020 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1076 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1180 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 994 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 519 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1177 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 975 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1152 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 879 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 982 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1011 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1155 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 970 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 981 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1017 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 990 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1054 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 954 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 965 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1006 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 833 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 995 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1197 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 893 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 998 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 912 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 946 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 911 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1026 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 860 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1068 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1001 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 995 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 915 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 871 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 853 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 892 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 770 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 834 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 932 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 814 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 952 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 794 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 901 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 930 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 952 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 982 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1127 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 922 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 854 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 706 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 964 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 896 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 901 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 952 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 888 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 895 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 861 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 902 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 785 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 955 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 854 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 888 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 849 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 871 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 864 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 907 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 895 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1357 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 895 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 899 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 879 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 906 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 413 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 867 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 900 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 977 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 982 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 862 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 711 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1036 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 877 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 889 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 995 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 915 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 950 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 895 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 897 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 945 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 791 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 766 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 867 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 928 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 908 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 620 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 880 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1009 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 853 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 979 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 911 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 887 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1026 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 812 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1280 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 844 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1002 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 940 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 858 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1078 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 919 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1026 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 900 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 796 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 910 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1029 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 946 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 999 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 929 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 989 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 499 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1042 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 985 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 978 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 930 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 903 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 977 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 869 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 764 Views

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