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still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. Onarishma Send a noteboard - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM

For books and books, we had people tell us men were stronger than women, and women needed circles to match men. Then RJ gave us the real answer and blew that misconception among the channelers into the garbage can. Why wouldn't he do the same thing here?

We still don't know what is going on there, and the most likely explanation is that RJ changed his mind. Moghedien tells Nynaeve that men are stronger in the Power. There can be no ignorance there, and yet we know that it isn't true in practice.

And that's okay, because Logain doesn't care about exact strength, or strength distribution. But we do. We have to be scientific and accurate, because we're trying to do something Logain has no interest in. Logain cares how effective people are at their tasks, and he had Androl promoted because he can Travel with extraordinary ease. But we're not into promoting Asha'man. We want to know exactly how strong they are, and how to figure out their strength. Comments from Flinn, Rand and Aviendha, as well as the Gateways of Androl and Reanne (Beonin too), prove that Gateway size is not a good indicator of exact strength. RJ even had Pevara make this mistake, in KoD, when she thought that they should bond men who make larger Gateways since they'll be stronger. Then who pops into her house and is likely to be her Warder? Androl.

Well I'm more like Logain I'm afraid, not a scientist in that sense. I don't think anyone has ever said that gateways can express exact strength but they give a good indication in most cases, like most weaves that are strength dependent. If you judged a channeler on who they can shield you'd probably be right in many cases too. You'd see that Nynaeve can shield most women therefore Nynaeve must be strong in the Power. However, if you get caught out by Berowin, you're caught out. Like with Androl. We don't live in a test tube.... Logain's thought processes are human, practical and mostly reliable. If Red Ajah bond the biggest gateway Ash'aman they will get the nine strongest men in the BT and Androl.

Lanfear is also the only woman we've seen with that strength, remember? That you'd naturally pick one outlier instead of another shows the lack of scientific rigor in your process, no? The right way is to judge the woman's OP strength AND her Talent at shielding. Not ignore one or the other just because it mostly works.

Lanfear and Rand are bad examples for the general population of channeling. You can rather apply it to weaker channelers. Cadsuane would think that Sorilea must be almost as strong as her to hold her, she wouldn't likely think of a shielding Talent.


I think it still holds that men have more strength than women. But it's also obvious how little that matters on an effectiveness scale. Lanfear in Raw terms could be a lot weaker than Rand, but clearly was more than his equal when they faced off ... Graendal shielded Aran'gar with ease because she was more "effectively strong". It is doubtful that any man could simply overwhelm Graendal with just raw strength (unless he caught her by surprise), she can too easily slice his flows or otherwise defend herself because she knows how to fight off an attack from an assailant who's flows she cannot see. She alludes to this when contemplating attacking Sammael, and it's ultimately why she knows she will lose since she was not already holding the Power she knew he had the clear advantage.

Where this probably matters at the moment is with the modern Channelers ... An average Asha'man will have a lot more raw strength than an average AS, but because they are not particularly well trained I don't think the effectiveness bonus a woman has is as prominent as it is with the AoL Channelers. Most modern AS have no experience facing any kind of fight, look how poorly they did against the Seanchan, now fighting a man whose flows are invisible to them and without training for it? Raw strength is almost always going to come out on top in that scenario. And I think we've seen that bear out in the text often enough. It's one of the reasons the AS look so weak IMO ... We only really see them on raw strength scales most of the time because they aren't well trained.

I believe only Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha and Cadsuane are capable of overcoming the strength gap at the moment. Which may not even be an issue for them as I would bet they are each at least as strong as an "average" man in raw terms.

I think it was Shannow who had a whole theory about gateway size and strength a while back ... There was a bunch of posts around it ... possibly in the wotmania days.


In the beginning of the series we were taught by Asmodean that men are much stronger and that it generally takes two women to match a man. At first glance one would think that he was perhaps lying (being Forsaken and all) but the example continued in the series. Rahvin said that Lanfear and Graendal would link if he or Sammael went for them, which is clearly an example of where Asmodean left off. Later we have Aes Sedai wondering whether two of them together can match an Asha'man.

Suddenly though, there seemed to be a shift and RJ said directly to us that women and men are effectively equal, even though men can hold more of the Power. I don't think it matters though, because a woman probably needs 4 saidar to Travel and a man 5 saidin, so it balances out to the same fraction of their power.

To me he clearly changed his mind, and he started to reinforce it more and more. He probably thought that female circles balanced the male strength advantage, but he replaced this later with the fact that all channelers are essentially equal, especially because men, too, can be in a circle. We then saw better examples of where Graendal matched up evenly with Sammael etc.


Lanfear and Graendal are not average women. Linking is an advantage that is more probable between women not only because it is easier to do but also because when linked with a man the man has to be in charge the two women can choose and pass. I don't believe Rahvin was scared of being matched by the linked pair he was stating they had the advantage because threatened they could overpower him easily and still separate without dispute. And while the current AS don't know how to fight over control the possible evasion on the journey to use the bowl of winds indicates that two women COULD fight over the control of the circle if they felt so inclined. There definitely seemed to be some snatching going on when control was being passed between the members of that circle.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2743 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1279 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 957 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1102 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1170 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1092 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 960 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1007 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 982 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1128 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 764 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 994 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1020 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1077 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1181 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 994 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 519 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1177 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 976 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1153 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 880 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 982 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1011 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1155 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 971 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 982 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1017 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 990 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1055 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 955 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 965 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1006 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 834 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 995 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1197 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 894 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 998 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 912 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 947 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 912 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1027 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 860 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1068 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1002 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 995 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 916 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 872 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 854 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 893 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 770 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 835 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 933 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 815 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 952 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 794 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 901 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 930 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 952 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 983 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1128 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 923 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 854 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 707 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 964 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 896 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 901 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 952 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 888 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 896 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 862 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 903 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 785 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 956 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 855 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 888 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 849 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 871 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 864 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 907 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 896 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1357 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 895 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 900 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 879 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 906 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 413 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 867 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 901 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 978 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 982 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 862 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 711 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1037 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 878 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 889 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 996 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 915 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 950 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 895 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 897 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 946 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 792 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 767 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 867 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 928 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 909 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 621 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 880 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1010 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 854 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 980 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 911 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 888 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1027 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 813 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1280 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 844 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1003 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 941 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 858 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1078 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 919 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1027 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 900 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 796 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 911 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1030 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 947 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 999 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 929 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 990 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 499 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1042 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 985 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 978 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 931 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 904 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 977 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 869 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 764 Views

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