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Re-read some stuff darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
Siuan states that despite being less than half her original strength her healing ability had not changed at all.

So from poor healer to poor healer? Groundbreaking...

Aviendha and Flinn both struggle with Traveling.

That isn't inability. Flinn can actually make gateways that can pass a cart. That is on par with Androl.

Nynaeve cannot make a Ter'angreal.

That's because its an abstract Talent like Dreaming or Listening to the Wind. You either have it or you don't. You can't just pick up a sa'angreal and suddenly identify ter'angreal like Aviendha does.

Rand has almost no healing ability.

Thats not inability, once again. I promise you that if he needs to Heal someone in the LB we will see it.

Conversely, Ishamael is stunned by the WF's ability with weather ... Unless you think he's only talking about Talaan this is an example where clearly weaker Channelers have created OP effects far gireater than expected. They only needed to link in order to use the BotW and what they did with that was also clearly well beyond what the FS thought should be possible. This speaks to both exceptional Talent and exceptional skill.

They do not have a Talent with the weather. They are well practiced in flows of Air. Elayne's ability with Air was greatly improved after a few lessons. That isn't Talent. That's practice and technique.

Go ahead and say it was strength that made the difference there, I'm sure Rand will rush out, grab a couple of weak angreal and form a quick circle and beat the DO :P

And strangely enough they demanded the strongest women possible for the BoW ;) No that was skill. The WF are very skilled with Air and probably Water too. It comes from generations of practice.


Egwene did not Heal Gawyn. She performed Healing weaves on him, but they were essentially ineffective. Her solution wasn't to grab an angreal and try to heal him it was to find a woman with more Talent to do the job. No amount of extra power was going to save Gawyn. This isn't too different from when Sorilea was able to make the gateway weave, but could not make it work. Unlike Androl, she doesn't have a strong enough Talent to make the weave function enough to be useful. Nor does Egwene have enough Talent to be an effective Healer.

Siuan is an average healer ... She managed to save Brynes soldiers which is significantly more than Sheriam, Egwene or Elayne can manage. The FACT that her ability to Heal changed not at all is because Talent doesn't change, it just is what it is. The Talent defines how much Power is necessary to make the weaves work, but no amount of additional power will let you have a greater effect than your Talent allows. S if you get a greater effect when you have an angreal it follows that your Talent is strong enough to continue to let you have an increased effect.

Flinn is one of the stronger Asha'man and openly states he has difficulty with Traveling. Androl can make a gateway large enou for a WAGON ... Androl makes gateways like Rands! Flinn has a weaker Talent for Traveling and therefor struggles with the weave despite being able to add power to it. His comment makes it clear that based on his strength he thinks he should be able to make one larger.

Rand may well be an exception now that he is "super Rand" ... After what he did at Maradon I won't rule anything out.

Every single Talent we have seen so far has shown us degrees of ability ... There are no "abstract" Talents. Like every other Talent, Foretelling or Dreaming or Ter'angreal ability, if the Talent is there an individual will have a set amount of ability with it. For all we know Nynaeve and Aviendha have the same Talent as Elayne, but to different degrees. Nynaeve gets "feelings" Aviendha can sense "purpose" and Elayne seems to be able to sense "form" therefore she can reproduce them to a degree. Certainly the Talents that require no weaves operate differently, but it doesn't change that Elaida had a weak FT Talent and Nicola a strong FT Talent.

I would say every Talent we have seen that requires specific weaves are incredibly common Talents, but the variation in the Talent defines how well the weave is executed. Thus you have wildly swinging variations on the Healing Talent that doesn't seem to have any correlation to OP Strength. Traveling looks to be the same ... Else why bother showing Androl or tell us Flinn can't make a gateway as large as his OP strength says he should? There is now proof that the ability to Travel is not dependent on OP strength, the stronger the Talent the weaker the Channeler can be and still pull off the weave. Clearly an individual with "average" Talent needs to dedicate a certain amount of OP into the weave to give it enough juice to function, but that isn't surprising ... We've seen plenty of weaves that require a lot of power to operate. But assuming how large a gateway is will give you even a general sense of a Channelers strength is a mistake as a very strong Channeler may only be able to create a small personal gateway if they have a weak Talent. And like everything else in WoT this is probably on the rare side. Outliers like Androl are obviously very rare, but what about someone like Beonin? IIRC she was able to create a quite large gateway... Much larger than she should have been able too ... Very easy to think she may have a disproportionate Talent for her strength. Sort of like Samitsu being "as effective as a circle" with Healing.

The WF have essentially inbred for 3000+ years and have become highly specialized in both knowledge and in genetic abilities. Over time they would have bred the Talent as well as the flow affinity into almost every woman. And please note it was the strength obsessed AS who made the call on the strongest women. It's clear that most Channelers from the modern era have not really pieced together that strength doesn't make much difference with Talents ... If they knew that they may have stepped back and given only WF a place in the use of the Bowl. Just like they did in the AoL ... Choose people for a circle based on their abilities rather than on strength.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 04/10/2012 at 08:01:44 PM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2743 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1279 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 957 Views
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Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1170 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1092 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 960 Views
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Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1128 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 764 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 994 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1020 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1077 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1181 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 994 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 520 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1177 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 976 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1153 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 880 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 982 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1011 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1156 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 971 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 982 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1018 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 990 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1055 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 955 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 965 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1007 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 834 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 995 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1197 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 894 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 998 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 912 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 947 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 912 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1027 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 860 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1068 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1002 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 995 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 916 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 872 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 854 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 893 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 770 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 835 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 933 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 815 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 953 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 795 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 902 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 931 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 952 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 983 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1128 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 923 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 854 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 707 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 964 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 896 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 902 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 952 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 888 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 896 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 862 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 903 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 786 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 956 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 855 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 888 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 849 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 871 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 864 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 907 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 896 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1357 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 895 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 900 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 879 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 907 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 414 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 867 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 901 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 978 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 982 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 862 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 712 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1037 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 878 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 889 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 996 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 916 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 950 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 896 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 897 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 946 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 792 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 767 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 867 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 928 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 909 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 621 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 880 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1010 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 854 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 980 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 911 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 888 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1027 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 813 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1281 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 844 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1003 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 941 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 859 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1078 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 919 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1028 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 900 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 796 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 911 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1030 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 947 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 999 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 929 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 990 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 499 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1042 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 985 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 979 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 931 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 904 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 977 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 869 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 764 Views

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