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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... LoialT Send a noteboard - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM
I have theorized before that all Gateways lead to TAR. Notice how the weave Egwene used to enter the dream world was tweaked very little to give the actual Traveling weave. I think what happens is that you basically make something of a double Gateway when you Travel. The Gateway actually opens into TAR, and another opens from TAR into the real world. The space between the two TAR locations is actually contracted to nothing (since such things are possible in TAR).

Several aspect of Gateways reinforce this. For one thing, their size has less to do with OP strength than other weaves we've seen. This could indicate that Gateway size might partially correlate to your strength in the Dream, too. For another, to make a Gateway, you need to know your current location, or you can never use it. This is explained if the current location is needed to open a portal to TAR. Within TAR, porting to a new location is easy, and that's why you don't care so much about knowing your destination. Lastly, of course, the Dreamspike is something that blocks a region of TAR, and blocks Traveling in a corresponding region of the real world. That is very telling.

Now, if this is true, then the inconstancies over what can pass through Gateways is explained. Constructs are artificial beings into which souls have been brought in by human channelers. Entering into TAR might simply rip that human made connection. A human souls connection to its body is much stronger, so much so that hurting the "soul construct" that you make when you're dreamwalking can actually hurt the body. And since TAR can rip such connections between body and soul, this may also explain why the Wise Ones insist entering it in the flesh is wrong.

On the flip side, what does and doesn't enter through a gateway might actually be at the command of the person who makes it. It could be that the dimensionless space between the two locations linked by the Gateway is actually of TAR, and anything passing through that space would be subject to the rules of TAR. So the lack of strong winds could entirely be a result of channelers of this Age simply not wishing for the wind. One the flip side, when Aviendha made her first Gateway, she never knew about this, so she simply didn't think to prevent wind and snow from coming through. Same with Egwene when she opened her first Gateway into the Waste. She felt a blast of heat, and if heat can travel through a Gateway, so can wind. That it usually doesn't is proof that there is inconsistency in how this works, which can be explained by this being under the control of the individual channelers.


I think you are definitely correct. This would also help further explain why it may soon be impossible to travel as the Pattern begins to go crazy. It is not just that you aren't sure where you're going, it's that TAR, which is very sensitive to ephemeral change would grow rather slippery if those solid aspects of the world started radically changing too.

Still, I am not sure about the physics issues. It seems like RJ's original ideas about Traveling, at least in EotW and tGH were that it was more like teleporting. He may not have thought this through quite as much as he thought about TAR, the Ways, Portal Stones until later...
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3127 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1680 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1350 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1471 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1716 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1440 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1352 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1383 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1371 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1515 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1169 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1375 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1411 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1486 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1576 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1404 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 697 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1614 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1386 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1552 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1274 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1365 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1427 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1533 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1391 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1392 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1407 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1357 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1457 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1320 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1338 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1413 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1280 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1391 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1604 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1316 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1383 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1298 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1315 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1276 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1408 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1231 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1452 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1380 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1368 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1274 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1298 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1263 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1284 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1179 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1218 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1307 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1180 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1364 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1156 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1279 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1331 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1364 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1375 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1521 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1308 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1235 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 1106 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1337 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1272 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1315 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1338 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1289 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1295 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1232 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1269 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1142 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1333 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1229 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1268 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1238 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1286 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1252 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1300 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1307 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1755 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1300 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1298 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1256 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1292 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 571 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1225 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1303 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1372 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1395 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1230 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 880 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1406 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1277 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1257 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1403 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1298 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1317 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1285 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1325 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1353 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1163 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1124 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1232 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1293 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1277 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 804 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1262 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1441 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1256 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1357 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1257 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1264 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1442 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1192 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1733 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1218 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1390 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1378 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1235 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1526 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1288 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1442 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1307 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1186 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1352 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1390 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1319 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1446 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1340 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1392 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 680 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1443 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1352 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1374 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1337 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1345 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1428 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1300 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1175 Views

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