Active Users:1021 Time:28/09/2026 04:42:11 AM
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? LoialT Send a noteboard - 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
My guess where the OP or TP came into play for Constructs is that it's used to splice and reorganize their genes and bind their DNA. It may not be possible to make a transmissible genetic "binding" with the One Power (which could happen I guess, some incompatibility between the "binding" and natural life transmission, whereas the TP, not "natural" to life in the Pattern in the first place does a different binding that can be transmitted) , as based on the limited evidence we have, no Construct made by Aes Sedai can reproduce (but however they seem not to have programmed cell degeneration either... Someshta remained alive for +3000 years... so did the Chora trees of the Aiel). It may well be the same for many species of Shadowspawn, i.e. that some specimens that can't reproduce have been around since the War of Shadow. Aginor seems to have found a way, perhaps this could only be done with the TP, to allow Constructs to breed (though not necessarily... it could have been an ethical choice of the Aes Sedai not to introduce new species in the Pattern, to rather make sterile Constructs only, their numbers limited to need and thus kept under control) . I'm guessing Trollocs don't have an extended lifespan either, but it's just a guess.


I can't remember, but I thought Avendesora was the only chora to survive and that they gave a cutting to the Cairhienen. I suppose even if this was the case that it wouldn't count as reproduction, just a cloning, but it does suggest one way for some constructs to make copies (or have copies made).

I am also curious about Someshta... He says he remembers Wolfbrothers when he meets Perrin, but this must mean he is even older than the AOL (or at least was already very old by its end) unless I missed something and there were wolfbrothers during the War of Power. He also remarks that it's been TWO thousand years since he's been under Avendesora. Was this a mistake on RJ's part, or did he have something to do with Rhuidean after being set up to guard to the Eye?

Finally, you recently suggested that Nakomi and the Green Man may have been ancient gods predating the Wheel cosmology. Did you mean that the Nym were ancient gods, or that they were created to celebrate that tradition? In the AOL, seed singing was done by men with a Green Man, so this leaves out the female aspect of that older cosmology. What was Nakomi's role? If not growth and rebirth, how was she supposed to work with the Green Man? Was the Serpent more than a symbol for time in this cosmology? Was there any space for the Dark One, or the True Source? I think the Horn of Valere (already an ancient misunderstood object during the AOL) may also have something to do with this older belief system. Some things we are told are very old, maybe older than the AOL: The Way of the Leaf, Dreamers, Wolfbrothers, the Horn of Valere, the Great Serpent, Portal Stones, the Ogier and the Stedding, the Tower of Ghenji... Do you think there are clues here to the outcome of the Last Battle, or are these just elements of world building?

LoialT :]
Reply to message
Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3154 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1700 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1406 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1500 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1741 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1466 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1373 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1408 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1394 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1554 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1202 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1427 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1432 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1513 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1609 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1438 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 735 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1648 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1418 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1586 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1300 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1397 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1463 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1558 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1472 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1428 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1432 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1402 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1509 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1350 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1369 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1437 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1307 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1425 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1628 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1344 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1407 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1353 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1342 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1304 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1442 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1262 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1523 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1425 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1398 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1298 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1340 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1303 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1315 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1202 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1254 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1336 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1202 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1399 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1184 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1307 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1354 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1428 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1435 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1545 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1330 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1267 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 1139 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1381 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1294 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1342 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1377 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1321 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1332 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1264 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1303 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1162 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1359 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1269 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1293 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1268 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1312 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1274 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1323 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1327 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1785 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1326 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1330 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1303 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1321 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 585 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1245 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1331 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1393 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1423 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1256 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 894 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1434 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1313 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1307 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1440 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1337 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1343 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1315 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1362 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1386 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1183 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1152 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1258 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1364 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1300 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 828 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1300 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1472 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1290 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1407 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1280 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1287 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1469 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1231 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1766 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1261 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1421 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1403 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1261 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1555 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1311 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1467 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1345 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1212 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1379 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1417 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1341 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1475 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1371 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1437 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 695 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1464 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1378 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1422 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1381 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1381 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1463 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM 1389 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? - 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM 1420 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1333 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1194 Views

Reply to Message