Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
Sidious Send a noteboard - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
You will notice that not one woman has made a strength to Gayeway comparison.
LOC (Possibilities) - Egwene’s rediscovery of Travelling caused a lot of Aes Sedai to smile, though only a handful were strong enough to make a gateway larger than they could put an arm through and most not even that.
Why have you quoted this? It shows there's a certain amount of strength required to Travel if you don't have hight levels of the Talent. It doesn't show anything resembling a one to one correlation between Gateway size and strength.
Let's assume there are two types of weaves : those you weave and they work e.g. a fireball, and those that only work for certain channelers e.g. Healing.
So I'll quickly round up the last 100 posts and summarize why Travelling is the former, and not a Talent in most cases...
1. It always works when you are strong enough in the Power. There is no real evidence that anyone with significant strength can't Travel despite your claims. Siuan can't Travel and suddenly she gets a sa'angreal and she can Travel. Even worse, she actually loses a Talent by becoming weaker in the Power. This is unheard of in Talent circles e.g. Dreaming, Foretelling, Cuendillar... once again proving that Travelling is not a Talent per se, but a weave that provides linear effect proportionately to strength in the Power. Much like a fireball, the more Fire you put into it, the bigger the fireball. You use minor discrepancies or complaints from channelers with different size gateways to list Travelling as a Talent, and yet its obvious that interindividual variation occurs with all weaves, especially because all people show different affinities for the five flows. The fact that Flinn is worse at Travelling means about as much as someone who is less adept with Fire for making a fireball i.e. it's not about Talents at all but aptitude with various weaves. In other words, evidence of variation is not evidence of the presence of a Talent. All weaves show variation.
2. You're ignoring evidence for the fact that the Talent is so rare that it isn't really an issue for most channelers when judging other channelers...
- Rand rates Asha'man strength on gateway size often from LoC onwards.
- Egwene directly says that only a handful of women have the strength to make a gateway to even put a hand through. This is clear evidence that Travelling is not a function of Talent but rather of strength in the Power. Egwene doesn't say that Nynaeve's discovery of five power Healing is causing excitement but that only a few women have the strength to pull it off. Nor does she say that few women are strong enough in the Power to make cuendillar. Those are Talents - she cannot predict who will be good with it. Travelling is not. She can accurately gauge who will be able to Travel from a distance.
- Mesaana measures Alviarin's strength in the Power and says that she has minimal strength but enough to teach her. She then teaches her to Travel. Mesaana doesn't wonder secretly whether Alviarin will have the Talent to pull off a gateway because all channelers in WoT know that all you need is the minimum strength and you can Travel. Before you protest, can you imagine if she made the same assumption about Healing... "you have little strength, child, but this is Healing." It probably wouldn't work. You have ignored all the signs of a strength based weave.
- Aviendha is angry that Elayne can outperform her with gateways. You use this as evidence of Talent, but actually it is evidence that Aviendha feels that she should be able to Travel like Elayne because she knows their strengths are similar. The fact that she cannot is due to her second weave inability. Once again, she expects that her fireballs should be as large as Elayne's.
- Logain measures a man's strength based on his gateways. You say that women don't ever do this, but women do mention that too few women are strong enough to Travel. Women can also measure their power directly merely by being close to another woman. Men cannot, and thus look at one another's feats.
3. The Talent does exist and it is powerful. Androl can make gateways with little effort. He can possibly even overwhelm a dreamspike, block gateways etc. He is rare. Berowin is rare. That's the whole reason why its called a Talent. If a woman like Sorilea makes a fireball as big as a house then she has a fireball Talent. Everyone else can make a fireball proportionate to how much Fire they place in a weave that is limited by their strength in the Power.
I just find it odd that you cling to a lone example like Androl but refuse to address examples mentioned repeatedly in the text to challenge this.
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Problems with gateways
28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
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Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
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Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
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It's been discussed before...
28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
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I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
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Re: I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
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Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
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Regarding shadowspawn:
28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
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Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
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I don't think RJ thought about it
28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
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Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
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Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
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Re: Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
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He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
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Gateway Talent I'd say
02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
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I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
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No I think they're more about strength
02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
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I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
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Egwene could not heal Gawyn
03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
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She did Heal him
04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
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Re-read some stuff
04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
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Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
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But his thought processes are sound
04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
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It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
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Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
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Ummm...
05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
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Re: Ummm...
06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
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I don't think RJ changed his mind
06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
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I think he did
08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
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She wouldn't have to guess!
09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
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Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
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There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
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I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
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Exactly...
10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
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AND...
10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
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Re: AND...
11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
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I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
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Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
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You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
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Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
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Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
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the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
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Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
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to the point on the Circle
06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
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Circles don't add the Talents...
07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
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I've been thinking about this
07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
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Circles give added precision, remember?
07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
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I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
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Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
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Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
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Highly doubtful...
08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
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Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
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Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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That is actually the crux of my issue
08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
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That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
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Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
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the text is not inconsistent.
19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
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I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
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RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
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I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
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THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
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It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
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Healing is a thing of the physical body
07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
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Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
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That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
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There is so much evidence against this
04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
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Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
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Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
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He's referring to skimming
06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
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I think we aren't far off in interpretation
06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
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Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
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Please explain Androl then
07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
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OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
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You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
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07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
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i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
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I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
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I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
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How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
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the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
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I agree with this PoV
06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
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Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
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I think you use the word Talent too liberally
08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
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I disagree
08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
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I sort of agree with Sidious there
09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
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Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
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Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
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Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
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Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
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Life skills and OP skills...
02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
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Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
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And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
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Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
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The point is the same regardless
03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
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You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
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weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
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Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
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Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
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