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I think he did Sidious Send a noteboard - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM

For books and books, we had people tell us men were stronger than women, and women needed circles to match men. Then RJ gave us the real answer and blew that misconception among the channelers into the garbage can. Why wouldn't he do the same thing here?

We still don't know what is going on there, and the most likely explanation is that RJ changed his mind. Moghedien tells Nynaeve that men are stronger in the Power. There can be no ignorance there, and yet we know that it isn't true in practice.

And that's okay, because Logain doesn't care about exact strength, or strength distribution. But we do. We have to be scientific and accurate, because we're trying to do something Logain has no interest in. Logain cares how effective people are at their tasks, and he had Androl promoted because he can Travel with extraordinary ease. But we're not into promoting Asha'man. We want to know exactly how strong they are, and how to figure out their strength. Comments from Flinn, Rand and Aviendha, as well as the Gateways of Androl and Reanne (Beonin too), prove that Gateway size is not a good indicator of exact strength. RJ even had Pevara make this mistake, in KoD, when she thought that they should bond men who make larger Gateways since they'll be stronger. Then who pops into her house and is likely to be her Warder? Androl.

Well I'm more like Logain I'm afraid, not a scientist in that sense. I don't think anyone has ever said that gateways can express exact strength but they give a good indication in most cases, like most weaves that are strength dependent. If you judged a channeler on who they can shield you'd probably be right in many cases too. You'd see that Nynaeve can shield most women therefore Nynaeve must be strong in the Power. However, if you get caught out by Berowin, you're caught out. Like with Androl. We don't live in a test tube.... Logain's thought processes are human, practical and mostly reliable. If Red Ajah bond the biggest gateway Ash'aman they will get the nine strongest men in the BT and Androl.

Lanfear is also the only woman we've seen with that strength, remember? That you'd naturally pick one outlier instead of another shows the lack of scientific rigor in your process, no? The right way is to judge the woman's OP strength AND her Talent at shielding. Not ignore one or the other just because it mostly works.

Lanfear and Rand are bad examples for the general population of channeling. You can rather apply it to weaker channelers. Cadsuane would think that Sorilea must be almost as strong as her to hold her, she wouldn't likely think of a shielding Talent.


I think it still holds that men have more strength than women. But it's also obvious how little that matters on an effectiveness scale. Lanfear in Raw terms could be a lot weaker than Rand, but clearly was more than his equal when they faced off ... Graendal shielded Aran'gar with ease because she was more "effectively strong". It is doubtful that any man could simply overwhelm Graendal with just raw strength (unless he caught her by surprise), she can too easily slice his flows or otherwise defend herself because she knows how to fight off an attack from an assailant who's flows she cannot see. She alludes to this when contemplating attacking Sammael, and it's ultimately why she knows she will lose since she was not already holding the Power she knew he had the clear advantage.

Where this probably matters at the moment is with the modern Channelers ... An average Asha'man will have a lot more raw strength than an average AS, but because they are not particularly well trained I don't think the effectiveness bonus a woman has is as prominent as it is with the AoL Channelers. Most modern AS have no experience facing any kind of fight, look how poorly they did against the Seanchan, now fighting a man whose flows are invisible to them and without training for it? Raw strength is almost always going to come out on top in that scenario. And I think we've seen that bear out in the text often enough. It's one of the reasons the AS look so weak IMO ... We only really see them on raw strength scales most of the time because they aren't well trained.

I believe only Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha and Cadsuane are capable of overcoming the strength gap at the moment. Which may not even be an issue for them as I would bet they are each at least as strong as an "average" man in raw terms.

I think it was Shannow who had a whole theory about gateway size and strength a while back ... There was a bunch of posts around it ... possibly in the wotmania days.


In the beginning of the series we were taught by Asmodean that men are much stronger and that it generally takes two women to match a man. At first glance one would think that he was perhaps lying (being Forsaken and all) but the example continued in the series. Rahvin said that Lanfear and Graendal would link if he or Sammael went for them, which is clearly an example of where Asmodean left off. Later we have Aes Sedai wondering whether two of them together can match an Asha'man.

Suddenly though, there seemed to be a shift and RJ said directly to us that women and men are effectively equal, even though men can hold more of the Power. I don't think it matters though, because a woman probably needs 4 saidar to Travel and a man 5 saidin, so it balances out to the same fraction of their power.

To me he clearly changed his mind, and he started to reinforce it more and more. He probably thought that female circles balanced the male strength advantage, but he replaced this later with the fact that all channelers are essentially equal, especially because men, too, can be in a circle. We then saw better examples of where Graendal matched up evenly with Sammael etc.
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3127 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1681 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1350 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1471 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1716 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1440 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1353 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1383 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1371 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1515 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1169 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1375 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1411 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1486 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1576 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1404 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 697 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1614 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1386 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1552 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1274 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1365 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1427 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1533 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1392 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1392 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1407 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1357 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1457 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1320 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1338 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1413 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1280 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1391 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1604 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1316 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1383 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1298 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1316 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1277 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1408 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1231 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1452 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1380 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1369 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1274 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1298 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1263 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1284 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1179 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1218 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1307 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1180 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1364 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1156 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1279 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1331 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1364 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1375 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1521 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1308 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1235 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 1106 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1337 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1272 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1315 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1339 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1289 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1296 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1232 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1269 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1142 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1333 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1229 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1268 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1238 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1286 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1252 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1300 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1307 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1755 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1300 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1298 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1256 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1292 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 571 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1225 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1303 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1372 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1395 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1231 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 880 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1406 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1277 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1257 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1403 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1298 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1317 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1285 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1325 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1353 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1163 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1124 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1233 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1294 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1278 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 804 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1262 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1441 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1256 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1357 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1257 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1264 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1442 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1192 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1733 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1218 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1390 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1378 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1235 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1526 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1288 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1442 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1307 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1187 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1352 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1390 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1319 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1446 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1340 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1392 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 681 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1443 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1352 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1374 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1337 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1345 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1429 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1300 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1175 Views

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