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Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
Beonin:

Knife of Dreams
Chapter Two
The Dark One’s Touch

As soon as Tervail let the canvas fall, she embraced saidar and wove Spirit almost caressingly. This weave fascinated her. a rediscovery of something thought lost forever and surely the greatest of Egwene al’-Veres discoveries. Every time she wove it she felt a sense of wonder, so familiar as novice and even Accepted, that had not come to her since she attained the shawl. Something new and marvelous. The vertical silvery line appeared in front of her, right atop the scoring on the ground. and suddenly became a gap that widened, the view through appearing to rotate until she was faced by a square hole in the air, more than two paces by two, that showed snow-draped oaks with heavy spreading limbs.

for argument sake we can call this 7 feet by 7 feet (1 span = 3 feet) since it's a little more than 2 paces x 2 paces

Here is the largest one we've seen from Egwene:

A Crown of Swords
Chapter 12
A Morning Of Victory

Weaving a gateway where he had been practicing the sword, a good eight feet by eight, she stepped through onto what seemed to be a ferry, floating in darkness that stretched forever.

So Egwene creates a gateway approximately 30% larger than Beonin can ... that's nice until you realize that Beonin is no stronger than Melaine who is approximately half of Egwene's strength. Either Egwene should be able to create a gateway that is 10 feet x 10 feet (which makes her like 70% Rand's strength) ... clearly we would have seen that by now if she could pull it off. Alternatively Beonin at her strength level should only be able to create a gate way about 5.75 feet x 5.75 feet if she was of "average" Talent.

I would also state it is highly unlikely that Egwene has a weak Traveling Talent since she discovered the weave for women and that seems highly unlikely if she did not possess a good strong talent for it.

Rand Quote
Chapter 54
To Caemlyn

The gateway appeared at the foot of the steps, first a bright line that seemed to turn, opening into a square hole into blackness four paces wide. Not a murmur came from the Aiel. Those beyond would be able to see him as through a smoked glass, a dusky shimmering in the air, but they could as well try walking through one of the palace walls. From the side, the gateway would be invisible except to the few close enough to see what might seem a long, fine hair drawn tight.

Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.


I acknowledge that you can make at least a couple of arguments here ... Neither woman looks to have strained to create their gateways so we can even be sure these are as large as either woman can manage. But this is what we have to go on. I'm inclined to think Egwene could produce a somewhat larger gateway than she did in this scene. It was, after all, for only her and Lan ... and you could just as easily argue that Beonin showed no strain and only had 2 people to Travel with as well.

But based on Aviendha's gateway in TPoD I suspect Egwene can create one of at least 9x9 since she is stronger than Aviendha in current strength..

The Path of Daggers
Chapter 1
To Keep The Bargain

Aviendha focused, and the flows wove together, creating identity between this place and the place she and Elayne and Nynaeve had chosen on a map. She gestured as though opening tentflaps. That was no part of the weave Elayne had taught her, but it was almost all she could recall of what she herself had done, long before Egwene made her first gateway. The flows coalesced into a silvery, vertical slash that rotated and became an opening in the air, taller than a man and just as wide. Beyond lay a large clearing surrounded by trees twenty or thirty feet high, miles north of the City, on the far side of the river. Knee-high brown grass came right up to the gateway, swaying through in a small breeze; it had not truly turned, only seemed to. Some of those blades were sliced cleanly, though, some lengthwise. The edges of an opening gateway made a razor seem dull.

The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha’s. She was sure she could have woven a larger, as large as Elayne could, using the weaves she had made without thought while trying to escape Rand al’Thor what seemed a very long time ago, but no matter how often she tried, only scraps came back to her. She felt no envy – rather, she took pride in her near-sister’s accomplishments – but her own failure made shame surge in her heart. Sorilea or Amys would be hard on her, if they knew that. About the shame. Too much pride, they would call it. Amys should understand; she had been a Maiden. There wasshame in failing at what you should be able to do. If she had not had to hold the weave, she would have run away so no one could see her.


Given Aviendha's perspective on how tall a man should be that makes this gate way at least 7x7 and she says Elayne can create a larger and thinks she should be able to as well if she could remember her original Weave. That means Elayne potentially has a Stronger Talent for Traveling than Egwene (because she is currently weaker) or that Egwene can create a larger than 8x8 gateway. Or both!
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 06/10/2012 at 11:27:03 PM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3154 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1700 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1406 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1500 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1741 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1466 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1373 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1408 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1394 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1554 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1203 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1427 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1432 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1513 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1609 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1438 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 735 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1648 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1418 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1586 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1300 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1397 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1463 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1558 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1472 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1428 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1432 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1402 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1509 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1350 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1369 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1437 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1308 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1425 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1628 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1344 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1407 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1353 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1342 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1304 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1442 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1262 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1523 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1425 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1398 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1298 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1340 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1303 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1315 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1202 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1254 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1336 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1202 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1399 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1184 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1307 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1354 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1428 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1435 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1545 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1330 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1267 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 1139 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1381 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1294 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1342 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1377 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1321 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1332 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1264 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1303 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1162 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1359 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1269 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1293 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1268 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1312 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1274 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1323 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1327 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1785 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1326 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1330 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1303 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1322 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 585 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1245 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1331 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1393 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1424 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1256 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 894 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1434 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1313 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1307 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1440 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1337 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1343 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1315 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1362 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1386 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1183 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1152 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1258 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1364 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1300 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 828 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1300 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1472 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1291 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1407 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1280 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1287 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1469 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1231 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1767 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1262 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1421 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1403 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1261 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1555 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1311 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1467 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1345 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1212 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1379 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1417 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1341 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1475 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1371 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1437 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 695 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1464 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1378 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1422 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1381 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1381 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1463 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1333 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1194 Views

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