For books and books, we had people tell us men were stronger than women, and women needed circles to match men. Then RJ gave us the real answer and blew that misconception among the channelers into the garbage can. Why wouldn't he do the same thing here?
We still don't know what is going on there, and the most likely explanation is that RJ changed his mind. Moghedien tells Nynaeve that men are stronger in the Power. There can be no ignorance there, and yet we know that it isn't true in practice.
And that's okay, because Logain doesn't care about exact strength, or strength distribution. But we do. We have to be scientific and accurate, because we're trying to do something Logain has no interest in. Logain cares how effective people are at their tasks, and he had Androl promoted because he can Travel with extraordinary ease. But we're not into promoting Asha'man. We want to know exactly how strong they are, and how to figure out their strength. Comments from Flinn, Rand and Aviendha, as well as the Gateways of Androl and Reanne (Beonin too), prove that Gateway size is not a good indicator of exact strength. RJ even had Pevara make this mistake, in KoD, when she thought that they should bond men who make larger Gateways since they'll be stronger. Then who pops into her house and is likely to be her Warder? Androl.
Well I'm more like Logain I'm afraid, not a scientist in that sense. I don't think anyone has ever said that gateways can express exact strength but they give a good indication in most cases, like most weaves that are strength dependent. If you judged a channeler on who they can shield you'd probably be right in many cases too. You'd see that Nynaeve can shield most women therefore Nynaeve must be strong in the Power. However, if you get caught out by Berowin, you're caught out. Like with Androl. We don't live in a test tube.... Logain's thought processes are human, practical and mostly reliable. If Red Ajah bond the biggest gateway Ash'aman they will get the nine strongest men in the BT and Androl.
Lanfear is also the only woman we've seen with that strength, remember? That you'd naturally pick one outlier instead of another shows the lack of scientific rigor in your process, no? The right way is to judge the woman's OP strength AND her Talent at shielding. Not ignore one or the other just because it mostly works.
Lanfear and Rand are bad examples for the general population of channeling. You can rather apply it to weaker channelers. Cadsuane would think that Sorilea must be almost as strong as her to hold her, she wouldn't likely think of a shielding Talent.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
3077 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
750 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1280 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1639 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1299 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1423 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1409 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1302 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1657 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1125 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1324 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1531 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1570 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1338 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
1502 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
1229 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
1326 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
1374 Views
No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1476 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1350 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
1338 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1363 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1306 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
1401 Views
She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1274 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1365 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1557 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
1261 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
1338 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1237 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1236 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
1362 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
1189 Views
I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
1328 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1243 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1224 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1243 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1172 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
1134 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
1158 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
1264 Views
AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
1134 Views
Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
1308 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
1239 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1289 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1228 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1319 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1476 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1263 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
1059 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1288 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1269 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1290 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
1241 Views
I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1187 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1227 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
1092 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1281 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
1191 Views
Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1221 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
1192 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
1241 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1205 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1245 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
1264 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
1712 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
1350 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1256 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1289 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1110 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
1208 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1203 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
1241 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
547 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
1254 Views
There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1322 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1344 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
1183 Views
He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
1366 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
1224 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1252 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1082 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1273 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1243 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1276 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1276 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1082 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1274 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1225 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1418 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1185 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
781 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1396 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1208 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1316 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1211 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1219 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1179 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1391 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1681 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1681 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1217 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1171 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1336 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1269 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1191 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1472 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1143 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1302 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1346 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1273 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1397 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1292 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1395 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1306 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1268 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1297 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1313 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1341 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1500 Views

