Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
DomA Send a noteboard - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
I don't know if you guys have discussed this yet, but Androl says as much. He mentions that he suspects his Talent is due to being so well Travelled.
It was the inspiration for my first post on the topic, but we got rapidly sidetracked in a chicken vs. egg debate over whether Androl was the type who couldn't stay long in one place because of a latent talent with a weave, or whether in this case the fact he's a great traveller, has developped spacial skills in domains like architecture and engineering, has contributed to what was perhaps a less outstanding natural affinity for Travelling that through mundane skills and knowledge he's honed to something really special.
You pointed out a quote from Maria where she thinks there's predestiny involved, but even though she has access to more material than us to make up her opinion, the fact she "thinks" indicate it's not something stated black on white in the notes (it's probably too general to appear in the notes, RJ knew the answer and either way he's applied the principle to create a great deal of channellers, he didn't need to put that to paper).
In the end it doesn't matter, it's the correlation between personality/mundane skill/knowledge and special field of affinities with the OP that's important, and between Androl and the Wisdoms who've become novices showing great skills to learn the new/real method of healing, the case is pretty strong. Those two occurences (Androl, the novices) are probably not incidental at all, it's rather a clue/sign that understanding of the OP and mundane knowledge is nearing a momenteous breakthrough, that channelers are about to understand channelling is only one aspect, and they need to develop their other skills too to really hone their OP skills, something the AOL Aes Sedai evidently understood (but didn't necessarily applied systematically... we've got two glaring exemples in Moghedien and Aran'gar, two who liked it easy and seemed to have little interest in developping their OP skills.. and who are both without known real Talents - TAR skills excluded, and for Moghedien TAR is largely a matter of avoiding direct challenges...).
If we dig enough, we'd find the evidence (notably in EOTW) that Elayne has always been interested in crafts and understanding how things work (even with more abstract concepts like politics, she's very much a person looking into causes and effects. She's probably a character who inherited RJ's "engineer" mind, thus her talent at making ter'angreal.)
And if we look at Aviendha, we see a person always keen to understand the purpose of everything, a side of her we've seen mostly in play in cultural matters. She's the Aiel always questionning why Wetlanders do this and that the way they do. There's probably a corrolation between that type of personality and her talent to understand the purpose of ter'angreal intuitively.
Interestingly, sisters with a great skill at "old style" Healing, the Heal-All-I-just-won't-let-you-die-on-me Healing are often shown as terribly stubborn, determined, single-minded and quite often they're plain bullies (from Romanda to Moiraine to Suana to Anayia, who were were told refused to budge an inch once she had taken a position. Suana described the Ajah as that of those who wished to repair what's broken, but more often than not good healers are more the type "who know how things should work, and won't give up until they work as they think it should work, and often they get what they want... Romanda is perhaps the epitome of that. People able to compromise or who change their mind too often often suck at Healing... Elayne and Egwene for instance.). People who show skills at the far more complex and really medical minded Restoring skills are different, with a real "calling" for medicine. Nyaneve is a mix of the two in her personality, and she's skilled at both forms of Healing, though she doesn't think much of "battlefield healing", which is a very unnatural concept for someone used to diagnose and find the cause, and apply the specific treatment that will have the desired effect, conscious she has to deal with possible side effects too. Nyaneve diagnoses with Delving. Healers rather used it to judge if their skill at Heal-all was great enough to work, and if the person was strong enough to survive the treament.
I'm pretty sure that without her Wisdom training, Nynaeve would never have made the discoveries she did. Her medical knowledge drove her. As primitive as her knowledge might seem to a modern physician, there was extremely little hocus pocus and superstition in Nynaeve's mundane methods as Wisdom. It's more empirical than anything, but it's still a fairly scientific approach, relying on very elaborate knowledge of active elements found in nature, and a pretty good empirical understanding of a body's working. Even if they have the skills to handle the five flows and make the weaves, a lot of Yellows would have no idea where to begin to use Nynaeve's methods as she relies massively on knowledge that feeds her intuition of how she should tweak the weaves to achieve a specific effect (and very tellingly, she seems to aim to reproduce inconsciously the effect a specific herb would have... still often by using the herb in question in parallel at this stage), and to even come close to her abilities they would need to study with Wisdoms for years to develop their medical knowledge, and that's without saying anything of women like Moiraine for whom the medical field is probably completely foreign.
There's very little doubt Elayne would develop her own skills with ter'angreal by leaps and bounds if she were to study engineering, maths and geometry, chemistry, physics with scholars at the Academies (well... her Cairhienin one anyway, her Andoran one is almost certainly gone and the scholars within lost). It would greatly refine and deepen what she does now by pure intuition and luck. Right now she doesn't understand the complex relationships between shape, matter, color and effect. She's got the mind of engineer, but she'd need real theorical knowledge to become more than a gifted amateur who can copy objects with varying success, and whose experience at that will grow slowly over the years, and reach a point where she can't advance on her own anymore without gaining the theorical knowledge she'd need.
This message last edited by DomA on 09/10/2012 at 05:21:43 PM
Problems with gateways
28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
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Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
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Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
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It's been discussed before...
28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
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I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
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Re: I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
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Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
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Regarding shadowspawn:
28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
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Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
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I don't think RJ thought about it
28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
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Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
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Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
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Re: Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
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He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
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Gateway Talent I'd say
02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
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I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
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No I think they're more about strength
02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
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I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
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Egwene could not heal Gawyn
03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
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She did Heal him
04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
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Re-read some stuff
04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
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Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
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But his thought processes are sound
04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
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It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
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Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
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Ummm...
05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
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Re: Ummm...
06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
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I don't think RJ changed his mind
06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
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I think he did
08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
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She wouldn't have to guess!
09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
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Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
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There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
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I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
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Exactly...
10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
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AND...
10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
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Re: AND...
11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
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I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
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Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
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You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
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Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
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Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
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the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
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Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
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to the point on the Circle
06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
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Circles don't add the Talents...
07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
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I've been thinking about this
07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
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Circles give added precision, remember?
07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
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I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
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Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
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Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
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Highly doubtful...
08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
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Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
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Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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That is actually the crux of my issue
08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
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That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
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Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
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the text is not inconsistent.
19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
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I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
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RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
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I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
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THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
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It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
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Healing is a thing of the physical body
07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
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Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
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That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
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There is so much evidence against this
04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
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Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
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Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
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He's referring to skimming
06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
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I think we aren't far off in interpretation
06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
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Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
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Please explain Androl then
07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
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OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
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You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
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07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
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i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
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I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
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I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
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How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
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the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
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I agree with this PoV
06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
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Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
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I think you use the word Talent too liberally
08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
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I disagree
08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
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I sort of agree with Sidious there
09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
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Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
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Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
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Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
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Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
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Life skills and OP skills...
02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
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Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
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And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
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Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
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The point is the same regardless
03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
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You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
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weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
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Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
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Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
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