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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. DomA Send a noteboard - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
I don't know if you guys have discussed this yet, but Androl says as much. He mentions that he suspects his Talent is due to being so well Travelled.


It was the inspiration for my first post on the topic, but we got rapidly sidetracked in a chicken vs. egg debate over whether Androl was the type who couldn't stay long in one place because of a latent talent with a weave, or whether in this case the fact he's a great traveller, has developped spacial skills in domains like architecture and engineering, has contributed to what was perhaps a less outstanding natural affinity for Travelling that through mundane skills and knowledge he's honed to something really special.

You pointed out a quote from Maria where she thinks there's predestiny involved, but even though she has access to more material than us to make up her opinion, the fact she "thinks" indicate it's not something stated black on white in the notes (it's probably too general to appear in the notes, RJ knew the answer and either way he's applied the principle to create a great deal of channellers, he didn't need to put that to paper).

In the end it doesn't matter, it's the correlation between personality/mundane skill/knowledge and special field of affinities with the OP that's important, and between Androl and the Wisdoms who've become novices showing great skills to learn the new/real method of healing, the case is pretty strong. Those two occurences (Androl, the novices) are probably not incidental at all, it's rather a clue/sign that understanding of the OP and mundane knowledge is nearing a momenteous breakthrough, that channelers are about to understand channelling is only one aspect, and they need to develop their other skills too to really hone their OP skills, something the AOL Aes Sedai evidently understood (but didn't necessarily applied systematically... we've got two glaring exemples in Moghedien and Aran'gar, two who liked it easy and seemed to have little interest in developping their OP skills.. and who are both without known real Talents - TAR skills excluded, and for Moghedien TAR is largely a matter of avoiding direct challenges...).

If we dig enough, we'd find the evidence (notably in EOTW) that Elayne has always been interested in crafts and understanding how things work (even with more abstract concepts like politics, she's very much a person looking into causes and effects. She's probably a character who inherited RJ's "engineer" mind, thus her talent at making ter'angreal.)

And if we look at Aviendha, we see a person always keen to understand the purpose of everything, a side of her we've seen mostly in play in cultural matters. She's the Aiel always questionning why Wetlanders do this and that the way they do. There's probably a corrolation between that type of personality and her talent to understand the purpose of ter'angreal intuitively.

Interestingly, sisters with a great skill at "old style" Healing, the Heal-All-I-just-won't-let-you-die-on-me Healing are often shown as terribly stubborn, determined, single-minded and quite often they're plain bullies (from Romanda to Moiraine to Suana to Anayia, who were were told refused to budge an inch once she had taken a position. Suana described the Ajah as that of those who wished to repair what's broken, but more often than not good healers are more the type "who know how things should work, and won't give up until they work as they think it should work, and often they get what they want... Romanda is perhaps the epitome of that. People able to compromise or who change their mind too often often suck at Healing... Elayne and Egwene for instance.). People who show skills at the far more complex and really medical minded Restoring skills are different, with a real "calling" for medicine. Nyaneve is a mix of the two in her personality, and she's skilled at both forms of Healing, though she doesn't think much of "battlefield healing", which is a very unnatural concept for someone used to diagnose and find the cause, and apply the specific treatment that will have the desired effect, conscious she has to deal with possible side effects too. Nyaneve diagnoses with Delving. Healers rather used it to judge if their skill at Heal-all was great enough to work, and if the person was strong enough to survive the treament.

I'm pretty sure that without her Wisdom training, Nynaeve would never have made the discoveries she did. Her medical knowledge drove her. As primitive as her knowledge might seem to a modern physician, there was extremely little hocus pocus and superstition in Nynaeve's mundane methods as Wisdom. It's more empirical than anything, but it's still a fairly scientific approach, relying on very elaborate knowledge of active elements found in nature, and a pretty good empirical understanding of a body's working. Even if they have the skills to handle the five flows and make the weaves, a lot of Yellows would have no idea where to begin to use Nynaeve's methods as she relies massively on knowledge that feeds her intuition of how she should tweak the weaves to achieve a specific effect (and very tellingly, she seems to aim to reproduce inconsciously the effect a specific herb would have... still often by using the herb in question in parallel at this stage), and to even come close to her abilities they would need to study with Wisdoms for years to develop their medical knowledge, and that's without saying anything of women like Moiraine for whom the medical field is probably completely foreign.

There's very little doubt Elayne would develop her own skills with ter'angreal by leaps and bounds if she were to study engineering, maths and geometry, chemistry, physics with scholars at the Academies (well... her Cairhienin one anyway, her Andoran one is almost certainly gone and the scholars within lost). It would greatly refine and deepen what she does now by pure intuition and luck. Right now she doesn't understand the complex relationships between shape, matter, color and effect. She's got the mind of engineer, but she'd need real theorical knowledge to become more than a gifted amateur who can copy objects with varying success, and whose experience at that will grow slowly over the years, and reach a point where she can't advance on her own anymore without gaining the theorical knowledge she'd need.

This message last edited by DomA on 09/10/2012 at 05:21:43 PM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2743 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1279 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 957 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1102 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1170 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1092 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 961 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1008 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 983 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1128 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 765 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 995 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1020 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1077 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1181 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 994 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 520 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1178 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 976 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1153 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 880 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 982 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1011 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1156 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 971 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 982 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1018 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 991 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1055 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 955 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 965 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1007 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 834 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 996 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1198 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 894 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 998 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 912 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 948 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 912 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1027 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 860 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1069 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1002 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 996 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 916 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 872 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 854 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 893 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 770 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 835 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 933 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 815 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 953 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 795 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 902 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 931 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 952 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 983 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1128 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 923 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 854 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 707 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 964 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 897 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 902 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 952 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 889 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 896 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 862 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 903 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 786 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 956 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 855 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 888 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 849 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 871 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 865 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 907 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 896 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1357 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 895 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 900 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 879 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 907 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 414 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 868 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 901 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 978 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 982 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 862 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 712 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1037 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 878 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 889 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 996 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 916 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 950 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 896 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 897 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 946 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 792 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 767 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 867 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 928 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 909 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 621 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 881 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1010 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 854 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 980 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 911 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 888 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1027 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 813 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1281 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 844 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1003 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 941 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 859 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1079 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 919 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1028 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 900 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 796 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 911 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1030 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 947 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 999 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 929 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 990 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 500 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1043 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 985 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 979 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 931 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 904 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 977 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 869 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 764 Views

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