The man she loves is lying there dying on her bed, of course she makes the attempt. Her Talent is too weak to be effective, he was still going to die. There is no evidence that an angreal would boost her ability. Moiraine had a very strong Talent for Healing and was significantly weaker than Egwene so it's possible that she could do more with one, but Egwene can obviously put many times the strength necessary to make the weaves function against this problem and still could barely achieve anything. Her level of Talent was clearly maxed out by this effort.
Yet Sorilea is stronger than Androl. The obvious answer is she doesn't have a strong enough Talent with Gateways at her strength. Like we saw with Siuan, give her a strength boost and she could make the weave function, but only to the extent her Talent allowed.
As for abstract Talents ... We keep hearing that there are degrees of ability. Elaida has a weak Talent, Egwene is a strong Dreamer,, and will "outstrip the WO someday", Gitara "Had the Foreteling very powerfully" ... This is all over the text. Clearly there are ways to judge the strength of a Talent as well. Granted these are relatively passive Talents and have no effect of weaves since they are not reliant on them, but it's obvious that not all Dreamers or Foretellers are not created equal.
You don't want to believe that characters can say things in the books and be wrong, despite misconception being thematic throughout the series. Do the math, everyone (except the FS) talks about Strength for gateways for the first few months they are around. Then suddenly we start seeing Androl who throws that argument out the window since its obvious that what he does (according to Taim) should be impossible. Eventually AS will start to notice that there are women who are making gateways that are disproportionate to their Strength, Give the Brown and the White some time to investigate and I would bet they realize many nuances. It likely won't be as dramatic as Androl, who is clearly an outlier, but, for argument sake, when Beonin can make a gateway nearly the size of what Egwene can and Lelaine can't match that folks will start to wonder why. Medani is another potential candidate for strong Traveling Talent IMO. She manages a decent size gateway and splits her flows to carry Verins corpse, something we know to be difficult. So she's either a lot stronger than we think she is or she is gifted in Traveling, also note Medani is similar to Androl in her love of travel... Nice little hint for us.
As for how common it is ... All you have to do is look at how many people can actually Travel. We know it is a Talent, which means in order to do it you must possess some level of the Talent or now matter how strong you were you wouldn't be able to make the weaves work to any meaningful effect, Nynaeve can't make Cuendillar, Semihage being poor at Weather etc... Therefore it follows that the Talent is somewhat common to the Channeling community.
Ultimately I think this boils down to this.
1. I think Androl's ability makes judging someone's OP Strength from gateway size invalid. Just as it would be foolish to measure Berowin's strength based on who she can shield. In fact I tend to believe you cannot accurately judge OP Strength based on any individual effect. There are simply too many variables involved. Yes strength is part of this, but you can't back into someone's strength based on a single effect that obviously Talent plays a huge role in.
2. I think the Talent defines the maximum extent a Channeler can effect something. It is very possible that a weak Channeler with a massive Talent such as Androl could create an even larger gateway if you handed him an angreal ... I would say that is a case where the Talent is beyond his natural Stength and therefore he can continue to add strength and get a larger effect. But on the flip side of that Flinn has to put far more strength into his much smaller gateway, and likely would not be able to make a significantly larger one even with an angreal, his level of Talent is restricting the size of the gateway. It's like a flashlight, the bulb is the Talent and the battery is strength. As the battery power fades the light grows dimmer until there is not enough power to make the thing work. But no matter how powerful the battery the bulb will never be brighter than its maximum output and it might even blow if you put too much power behind it. Finn has a 10 watt bulb with a strong battery and Androl has a 100 watt bulb with a weak battery. Flinn is clearly perturbed by this lack as he must knew that the amount OP he has to use to make a gateway is more than other Asha'man ... It obviously bugs him to not understand why.
Circles and mixed circles are too difficult to judge since we don't have enough information on how Talent is affected in these circumstances. The BotW effect certainly seems indicative that there may well be a huge increase in effectiveness when Linked, as that circle managed an effect well beyond what the Bowl was designed for and it was by no means a massively strong circle (by AoL standards).
Yet Sorilea is stronger than Androl. The obvious answer is she doesn't have a strong enough Talent with Gateways at her strength. Like we saw with Siuan, give her a strength boost and she could make the weave function, but only to the extent her Talent allowed.
As for abstract Talents ... We keep hearing that there are degrees of ability. Elaida has a weak Talent, Egwene is a strong Dreamer,, and will "outstrip the WO someday", Gitara "Had the Foreteling very powerfully" ... This is all over the text. Clearly there are ways to judge the strength of a Talent as well. Granted these are relatively passive Talents and have no effect of weaves since they are not reliant on them, but it's obvious that not all Dreamers or Foretellers are not created equal.
You don't want to believe that characters can say things in the books and be wrong, despite misconception being thematic throughout the series. Do the math, everyone (except the FS) talks about Strength for gateways for the first few months they are around. Then suddenly we start seeing Androl who throws that argument out the window since its obvious that what he does (according to Taim) should be impossible. Eventually AS will start to notice that there are women who are making gateways that are disproportionate to their Strength, Give the Brown and the White some time to investigate and I would bet they realize many nuances. It likely won't be as dramatic as Androl, who is clearly an outlier, but, for argument sake, when Beonin can make a gateway nearly the size of what Egwene can and Lelaine can't match that folks will start to wonder why. Medani is another potential candidate for strong Traveling Talent IMO. She manages a decent size gateway and splits her flows to carry Verins corpse, something we know to be difficult. So she's either a lot stronger than we think she is or she is gifted in Traveling, also note Medani is similar to Androl in her love of travel... Nice little hint for us.
As for how common it is ... All you have to do is look at how many people can actually Travel. We know it is a Talent, which means in order to do it you must possess some level of the Talent or now matter how strong you were you wouldn't be able to make the weaves work to any meaningful effect, Nynaeve can't make Cuendillar, Semihage being poor at Weather etc... Therefore it follows that the Talent is somewhat common to the Channeling community.
Ultimately I think this boils down to this.
1. I think Androl's ability makes judging someone's OP Strength from gateway size invalid. Just as it would be foolish to measure Berowin's strength based on who she can shield. In fact I tend to believe you cannot accurately judge OP Strength based on any individual effect. There are simply too many variables involved. Yes strength is part of this, but you can't back into someone's strength based on a single effect that obviously Talent plays a huge role in.
2. I think the Talent defines the maximum extent a Channeler can effect something. It is very possible that a weak Channeler with a massive Talent such as Androl could create an even larger gateway if you handed him an angreal ... I would say that is a case where the Talent is beyond his natural Stength and therefore he can continue to add strength and get a larger effect. But on the flip side of that Flinn has to put far more strength into his much smaller gateway, and likely would not be able to make a significantly larger one even with an angreal, his level of Talent is restricting the size of the gateway. It's like a flashlight, the bulb is the Talent and the battery is strength. As the battery power fades the light grows dimmer until there is not enough power to make the thing work. But no matter how powerful the battery the bulb will never be brighter than its maximum output and it might even blow if you put too much power behind it. Finn has a 10 watt bulb with a strong battery and Androl has a 100 watt bulb with a weak battery. Flinn is clearly perturbed by this lack as he must knew that the amount OP he has to use to make a gateway is more than other Asha'man ... It obviously bugs him to not understand why.
Circles and mixed circles are too difficult to judge since we don't have enough information on how Talent is affected in these circumstances. The BotW effect certainly seems indicative that there may well be a huge increase in effectiveness when Linked, as that circle managed an effect well beyond what the Bowl was designed for and it was by no means a massively strong circle (by AoL standards).
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
3078 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
751 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1282 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1643 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1300 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1424 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1411 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1306 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1659 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1127 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1325 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1531 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1572 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1339 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
1504 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
1232 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
1331 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
1375 Views
No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1478 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1354 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
1342 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1366 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1307 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
1406 Views
She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1276 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1366 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff
- 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM
1235 Views
Um she tries out of desperation?
- 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM
1334 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1562 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
1266 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
1342 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1243 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1238 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
1363 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
1191 Views
I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
1332 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1244 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1226 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1248 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1175 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
1137 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
1161 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
1267 Views
AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
1135 Views
Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
1312 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
1241 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1291 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1229 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1320 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1476 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1267 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
1062 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1293 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1272 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1293 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
1243 Views
I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1189 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1231 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
1097 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1285 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
1194 Views
Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1225 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
1195 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
1244 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1206 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1249 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
1267 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
1713 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
1353 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1257 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1292 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1111 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
1210 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1207 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
1244 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
548 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
1256 Views
There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1325 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1346 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
1185 Views
He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
1370 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
1226 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1256 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1084 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1276 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1247 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1277 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1277 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1084 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1279 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1229 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1422 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1187 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
781 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1399 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1210 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1321 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1212 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1220 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1184 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1397 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1683 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1683 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1219 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1175 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1340 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1271 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1194 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1472 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1145 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1304 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1348 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1276 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1398 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1296 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1399 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1311 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1271 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1301 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1317 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1343 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1503 Views

