Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
By your account Logain would also judged Berowin as stronger than Nynaeve because she may be able to Shield him alone. That would be quiet the misconception. And in the case of two men who who are close in strength such as Rand and Logain (who it would be difficult to establish which is actually stronger from casual observation) Logain's statement is stupid. He's seen with his own eyes that a MUCH weak man, Androl, can make gateways on par with Rand so he clearly knows there is more to a gateway's size than simply the strength of the Channeler.
Where is your evidence that the Talent is rare? By all accounts in the books the Talent is actually abundant! We've seen that nearly all Channelers can Travel and we've heard that at least some, Flinn, have difficulty with it... IIRC Flinn should be able to make a larger gateway than he can. This example is probably meant to show is that Talent, or lack of it HAS an effect on Traveling and it goes both directions. There is a quote about "him not being like Androl" in there somewhere. Certainly strength is a factor, but Talent is much more likely the driver on gateway size (I think it's something of a multiplier ... Androl gets a +500% while Rand gets a +25% type of thing). Androl is clearly an outlier in his ability, but that ability illustrates the point that the Talent is what is important. It may be possible that a different weave would enable weaker Channelers to Travel.
Regardless Androl's ability proves that you cannot judge a Channelers strength by the size of a gateway.
Certainly Channelers link to achieve certain feats, but Talent with a flow would be a part of a link and we know in the AoL (BWB commentary) that strength was not the biggest factor in being chosen for a circle, rather ability was. Thus a man like Androl may have been attached to circles for mass transit, or Berowin for shielding etc ... It isn't their strength that is needed, it's their Talent.
Strength in a flow doesn't necessarily mean someone can channel more volume of that power than other flows, merely that they have a more refined touch with it or that it is "natural" to them. It's not like Egwene can channel 5x more Earth than she can Air ... Just that her Earth flows are much more pure than others. Kairen and Leane are two of the weakest AS in the Tower, yet they had more ability with making Cuendillar than anyone except Egwene. Strength was not the overcoming factor there as Nicola was likely stronger than either of these women at the time and Bode may well have been as well. Why weren't Romanda or Lelaine making it? By your rationale as stronger Channelers they should be able to compensate for their lack of Talent or flow affinity by adding power ... Romanda and Lelaine are about 3x the strength of Leane and Kairen, certainly they should be able to channel more volume of Earth into a weave ... Or why not simple secure angreal for Leane and Kairen and send them to the harbor chain? Likely because more Power wasn't what the needed.
Where is your evidence that the Talent is rare? By all accounts in the books the Talent is actually abundant! We've seen that nearly all Channelers can Travel and we've heard that at least some, Flinn, have difficulty with it... IIRC Flinn should be able to make a larger gateway than he can. This example is probably meant to show is that Talent, or lack of it HAS an effect on Traveling and it goes both directions. There is a quote about "him not being like Androl" in there somewhere. Certainly strength is a factor, but Talent is much more likely the driver on gateway size (I think it's something of a multiplier ... Androl gets a +500% while Rand gets a +25% type of thing). Androl is clearly an outlier in his ability, but that ability illustrates the point that the Talent is what is important. It may be possible that a different weave would enable weaker Channelers to Travel.
Regardless Androl's ability proves that you cannot judge a Channelers strength by the size of a gateway.
Certainly Channelers link to achieve certain feats, but Talent with a flow would be a part of a link and we know in the AoL (BWB commentary) that strength was not the biggest factor in being chosen for a circle, rather ability was. Thus a man like Androl may have been attached to circles for mass transit, or Berowin for shielding etc ... It isn't their strength that is needed, it's their Talent.
Strength in a flow doesn't necessarily mean someone can channel more volume of that power than other flows, merely that they have a more refined touch with it or that it is "natural" to them. It's not like Egwene can channel 5x more Earth than she can Air ... Just that her Earth flows are much more pure than others. Kairen and Leane are two of the weakest AS in the Tower, yet they had more ability with making Cuendillar than anyone except Egwene. Strength was not the overcoming factor there as Nicola was likely stronger than either of these women at the time and Bode may well have been as well. Why weren't Romanda or Lelaine making it? By your rationale as stronger Channelers they should be able to compensate for their lack of Talent or flow affinity by adding power ... Romanda and Lelaine are about 3x the strength of Leane and Kairen, certainly they should be able to channel more volume of Earth into a weave ... Or why not simple secure angreal for Leane and Kairen and send them to the harbor chain? Likely because more Power wasn't what the needed.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Problems with gateways
28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
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Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
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Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
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It's been discussed before...
28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
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I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
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Re: I would agree with this
28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
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Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
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Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
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Regarding shadowspawn:
28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
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Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
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I don't think RJ thought about it
28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
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Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
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Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
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Re: Androl throws a kink in this
02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
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He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
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Gateway Talent I'd say
02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
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I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
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No I think they're more about strength
02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
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I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
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Egwene could not heal Gawyn
03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
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She did Heal him
04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
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Re-read some stuff
04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
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Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
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But his thought processes are sound
04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
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It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
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Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
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Ummm...
05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
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Re: Ummm...
06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
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I don't think RJ changed his mind
06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
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I think he did
08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
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She wouldn't have to guess!
09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
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Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
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There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
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I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
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Exactly...
10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
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Re: Exactly...
10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
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AND...
10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
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Re: AND...
11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
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Re: AND...
12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
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I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
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Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
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You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
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Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
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Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
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the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
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Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
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to the point on the Circle
06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
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Circles don't add the Talents...
07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
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I've been thinking about this
07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
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Circles give added precision, remember?
07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
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I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
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Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
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Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
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Highly doubtful...
08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
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Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
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Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
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That is actually the crux of my issue
08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
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That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
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Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
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the text is not inconsistent.
19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
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I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
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RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
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I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
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THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
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It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
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Healing is a thing of the physical body
07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
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Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
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That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
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There is so much evidence against this
04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
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Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
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Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
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He's referring to skimming
06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
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I think we aren't far off in interpretation
06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
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Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
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Please explain Androl then
07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
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OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
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You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
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07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
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i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
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I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
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I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
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How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
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the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
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I agree with this PoV
06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
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Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
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I think you use the word Talent too liberally
08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
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I disagree
08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
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I sort of agree with Sidious there
09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
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Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
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Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
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Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
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This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
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Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
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Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
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Life skills and OP skills...
02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
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Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
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And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
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Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
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The point is the same regardless
03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
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Re: Or the reverse could be true
02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
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You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
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weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
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Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
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Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
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Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
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