Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
Sidious Send a noteboard - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
You will notice that not one woman has made a strength to Gayeway comparison.
LOC (Possibilities) - Egwene’s rediscovery of Travelling caused a lot of Aes Sedai to smile, though only a handful were strong enough to make a gateway larger than they could put an arm through and most not even that.
Why have you quoted this? It shows there's a certain amount of strength required to Travel if you don't have hight levels of the Talent. It doesn't show anything resembling a one to one correlation between Gateway size and strength.
Let's assume there are two types of weaves : those you weave and they work e.g. a fireball, and those that only work for certain channelers e.g. Healing.
So I'll quickly round up the last 100 posts and summarize why Travelling is the former, and not a Talent in most cases...
1. It always works when you are strong enough in the Power. There is no real evidence that anyone with significant strength can't Travel despite your claims. Siuan can't Travel and suddenly she gets a sa'angreal and she can Travel. Even worse, she actually loses a Talent by becoming weaker in the Power. This is unheard of in Talent circles e.g. Dreaming, Foretelling, Cuendillar... once again proving that Travelling is not a Talent per se, but a weave that provides linear effect proportionately to strength in the Power. Much like a fireball, the more Fire you put into it, the bigger the fireball. You use minor discrepancies or complaints from channelers with different size gateways to list Travelling as a Talent, and yet its obvious that interindividual variation occurs with all weaves, especially because all people show different affinities for the five flows. The fact that Flinn is worse at Travelling means about as much as someone who is less adept with Fire for making a fireball i.e. it's not about Talents at all but aptitude with various weaves. In other words, evidence of variation is not evidence of the presence of a Talent. All weaves show variation.
2. You're ignoring evidence for the fact that the Talent is so rare that it isn't really an issue for most channelers when judging other channelers...
- Rand rates Asha'man strength on gateway size often from LoC onwards.
- Egwene directly says that only a handful of women have the strength to make a gateway to even put a hand through. This is clear evidence that Travelling is not a function of Talent but rather of strength in the Power. Egwene doesn't say that Nynaeve's discovery of five power Healing is causing excitement but that only a few women have the strength to pull it off. Nor does she say that few women are strong enough in the Power to make cuendillar. Those are Talents - she cannot predict who will be good with it. Travelling is not. She can accurately gauge who will be able to Travel from a distance.
- Mesaana measures Alviarin's strength in the Power and says that she has minimal strength but enough to teach her. She then teaches her to Travel. Mesaana doesn't wonder secretly whether Alviarin will have the Talent to pull off a gateway because all channelers in WoT know that all you need is the minimum strength and you can Travel. Before you protest, can you imagine if she made the same assumption about Healing... "you have little strength, child, but this is Healing." It probably wouldn't work. You have ignored all the signs of a strength based weave.
- Aviendha is angry that Elayne can outperform her with gateways. You use this as evidence of Talent, but actually it is evidence that Aviendha feels that she should be able to Travel like Elayne because she knows their strengths are similar. The fact that she cannot is due to her second weave inability. Once again, she expects that her fireballs should be as large as Elayne's.
- Logain measures a man's strength based on his gateways. You say that women don't ever do this, but women do mention that too few women are strong enough to Travel. Women can also measure their power directly merely by being close to another woman. Men cannot, and thus look at one another's feats.
3. The Talent does exist and it is powerful. Androl can make gateways with little effort. He can possibly even overwhelm a dreamspike, block gateways etc. He is rare. Berowin is rare. That's the whole reason why its called a Talent. If a woman like Sorilea makes a fireball as big as a house then she has a fireball Talent. Everyone else can make a fireball proportionate to how much Fire they place in a weave that is limited by their strength in the Power.
I just find it odd that you cling to a lone example like Androl but refuse to address examples mentioned repeatedly in the text to challenge this.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
3049 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
735 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1253 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1610 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1267 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1391 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1380 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1279 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1623 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1097 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1293 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1499 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1532 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1302 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
1469 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
1194 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
1300 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
1337 Views
No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1448 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1320 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
1304 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1332 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1277 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
1371 Views
She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1246 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1331 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1525 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
1233 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
1297 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1217 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1203 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
1334 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
1164 Views
I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
1301 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1206 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1191 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1209 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1139 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
1103 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
1127 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
1237 Views
AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
1101 Views
Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
1279 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
1215 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1262 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1196 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1285 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1447 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1228 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
1030 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1262 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1237 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1267 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
1216 Views
I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1153 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1196 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
1066 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1248 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
1157 Views
Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1197 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
1164 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
1208 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1168 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1221 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
1229 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
1675 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
1310 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1225 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1253 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1077 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
1175 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1174 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
1213 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
528 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
1218 Views
There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1293 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1314 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
1150 Views
He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
1334 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
1197 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1225 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1051 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1245 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1215 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1244 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1244 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1051 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1239 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1199 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1392 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1154 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
755 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1356 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1173 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1283 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1186 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1184 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1148 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1367 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1648 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1648 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1185 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1142 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1307 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1231 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1164 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1442 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1118 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1266 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1314 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1239 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1361 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1258 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1362 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1273 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1241 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1269 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1284 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1305 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1463 Views

