I have theorized before that all Gateways lead to TAR. Notice how the weave Egwene used to enter the dream world was tweaked very little to give the actual Traveling weave. I think what happens is that you basically make something of a double Gateway when you Travel. The Gateway actually opens into TAR, and another opens from TAR into the real world. The space between the two TAR locations is actually contracted to nothing (since such things are possible in TAR).
I agree there's obviously a relationship between Travelling and TAR, but I'm less sure of the mechanics, but it's possible indeed that the Gateway opens in TAR, and it's using the properties of TAR that two locations are made the same, or that a hole is made between the two. I suspect gateway size is a matter of strength/talent with Spirit, and perhaps strength of will. There is a corrolation between global raw strength and gateways, but it's even more a specific flow and talent handling it which would be the most important factor.
Based on what happened with Perrin in TAR, his incapacity to think himself out of the dreamspike zone, I had this notion that perhaps the dreamspike is some sort of AI reproducing "human will" and which shifts or twist in a small way the reflection of an area of the real world. It would mean the reflection between TAR and the RL isn't synchronized anymore in a limited perimeter (the dreamspike would have a limit of how far it can alter TAR and maintain these changes).
This would mean that if you know how exactly the reflection of the RW perimeter in TAR is shifted by the dreamspike - and they all seem to have a unique sequence - you could alter your Gateway weave accordingly to compensate, what Moridin referred to as "knowing the key", and thus you could Travel to and from the place normally.
For one thing, their size has less to do with OP strength than other weaves we've seen.
Another skill for which we've seen this is shielding, and again it's something of Spirit.
Now, if this is true, then the inconstancies over what can pass through Gateways is explained. Constructs are artificial beings into which souls have been brought in by human channelers. Entering into TAR might simply rip that human made connection.
I doubt it's the right explanation. Don't forget Trollocs breed normally, and Myrddraal happened naturally as a throwback. If there was any "soul binding" involved, it occured with the original specimens only and truth be told I doubt there's any "soul binding" involved... I think the geneticians simply created viable lifeforms and those being attracted a soul from the soul pool "naturally".
IMO, the reason why constructs can't use Traveling Gateways is that their souls doesn't correspond to what they really are physically. The problem might be when you exit: to "TAR" you're not a Trolloc but a human or animal. It can't hold you together, so to speak, it tries to revert you to what you should be, and you die. Moridin seems to have a trick to bring Shadowspawn to TAR (we could debate if those seen with Ishamael in the early series were real or TAR/dreamshards creations, but Aran'gar in KOD at least never questionned the reality of the Zomoran, perhaps snatching them there from their dreams.) It could also be that it's "double-gateways" which kill Shadowspawn, gateways opening in and out of TAR at the same time, but that they can pass through a "single-gateway" leading only to or out of TAR, not two locations. But it's doubtful as they can't use Skimming Gateways either.
That it usually doesn't is proof that there is inconsistency in how this works, which can be explained by this being under the control of the individual channelers.
It's pretty clear elements can pass through a gateway, the question is more why a difference in air pressure in the two locations doesn't create the physical phenomenons it should. This could be because the two sides of a gateway aren't connected physically as we could presume, as there's TAR standing in-between. Weather/elements act strangely in TAR.
This message last edited by DomA on 01/10/2012 at 09:05:00 PM
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
3027 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
720 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1226 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1589 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1236 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1368 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1357 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1247 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1568 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1070 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1270 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1469 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1511 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1284 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
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He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
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Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
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I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
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No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1424 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1300 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1301 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1251 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
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She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1210 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1302 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1496 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
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It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
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Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1192 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1177 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
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I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
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I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
1277 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1181 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1162 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1188 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1113 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
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Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
1103 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
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AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
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Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
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Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
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Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1235 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1173 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1261 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1428 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1206 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
999 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1235 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1215 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1238 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
1188 Views
I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1136 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1164 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
1040 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1219 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
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Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1174 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
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Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
1174 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1141 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1191 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
1200 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
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I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
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RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1192 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1229 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1054 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1156 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
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Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
518 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
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There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1272 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1288 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
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He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
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I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
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Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1204 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1022 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1212 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1183 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1213 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1213 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1022 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1215 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1172 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1355 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1127 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
743 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1330 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1143 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1262 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1159 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1163 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1123 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1337 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1616 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1616 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1158 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1122 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1278 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1209 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1143 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1417 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1097 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1245 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1281 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1209 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1337 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1234 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1337 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1245 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1217 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1234 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1265 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1278 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1430 Views

