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Re: Or the reverse could be true DomA Send a noteboard - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
Personally I think innate OP skills driving life choice seems more likely than the other way around.


That sounds very unlikely.

Just look at the Yellow Ajah. Most of them are dismissive of medication. Their work consisted of delving to know how much of the "heal-all" weave they should use. Even someone like Samitsu who could vary the strength of the weave according to ailment was truly exceptional. The Yellows probably study anatomy and pathology, but most are little interested in medicine. Why would they care, they had only a "heal all" cure as solution to everything?

By your reasoning, there should rather be an overwhelming number of women with a background as Healers among the Yellows, but the evidence is that it's precisely what the Ajah has lacked in the last millenia.

Then came a fully trained Wisdom, a woman truly exceptional because a) she trained for medical knowledge and skills very early in life, earlier than most wisdoms b) she got accepted at the Tower despite being too old. Nynaeve is trained to identify symptoms and causes, to deal with each with the proper specific cure. The "heal all" philosophy doesn't make sense to a doctor like Nynaeve, she approached the OP as she studied herbal medications and their interactions. She's developped an intuitive affinity of how the five powers interacted with one another and with the human body, but ultimately it's grounded in her experience of using medication and procedures. Her prior knowledge and experience have guided her in developping her OP skills. She also has one hell of a strength of will and doesn't give up easily. Unsurprisingly, Romanda has noted that there's a fair percentage of former Wisdoms in the new novices who have great potential for five power healing. The Yellows will have to rethink their training. They will need much greater medical knowledge from now on, and the women already too set in their ways and vision of healing might have problems developping the skills for the "new healing".

We also have evidence from the Wilders. Most of them develop a OP shaped by their a great desire for something. For Nynaeve it was more than that, it bordered on obsession.

Other examples: Semirhage's skills rely on extreme precision in her weaving, it's not surprising she's the one who can block a closing gateway, very likely a skill relying on precision. Graendal was obsessed with controlling people, her main skill is in Compulsion.

It's very likely Androl's gateways work so well because his skills for them is much greater, which is grounded in both his prior knowledge/skills and his limitation of being forced to use very small flows. He requires far less OP to achieve great results. The others compensate with "wasting" a lot of saidin on it, Androl relies on precision. It's a skill more naturally present among the saidar users. Women seems to use less saidar for a large gateway than a man uses saidin. Androl's weaving of gateways is just far more performant than anyone else, and the coincidences that he's trained in spatial skills, good with tasks requiring fine motor skills and precision and he's a great traveller knowing the land very well are just too big not to be a huge factor of explanation why he's so good with that weave. Don't forget, we know geographic knowledge counts: we've seen some channelers studying maps before opening gateways, to increase their precision about the arrival location. With areas they don't know well, they've sometimes been miles off target. Spatial skills must count too, especially for Gateways opened in visual range.



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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 3003 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1564 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1208 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1349 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1524 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1328 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1221 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1260 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1248 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1368 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 1044 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1251 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1275 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1348 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1448 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1272 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 637 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1483 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1235 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1412 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1156 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1261 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1285 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1411 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1282 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1261 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1284 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1230 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1323 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1191 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1197 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1284 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1151 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1257 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1472 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1173 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1252 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1171 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1211 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1154 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1277 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1113 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1336 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1249 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1253 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1162 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1158 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1140 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1159 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 1051 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 1081 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1194 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 1052 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1232 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 1021 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1154 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1212 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1239 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1246 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1410 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1182 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1113 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 975 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1218 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1140 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1187 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1214 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1161 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1166 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1109 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1145 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 1013 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1198 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 1116 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1153 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1110 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1149 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1109 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1169 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1180 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1620 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1164 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1165 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1137 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1168 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 510 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1091 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1183 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1249 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1264 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1101 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 819 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1290 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1145 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1135 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1276 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1179 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1189 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1157 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1192 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1228 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 1046 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 1002 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1107 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1174 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1154 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 731 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1131 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1309 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1123 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1241 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1144 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1144 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1315 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 1064 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1592 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1102 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1257 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1260 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1119 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1383 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1166 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1286 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1175 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 1068 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1227 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1261 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1189 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1311 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1208 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1266 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 619 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1315 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1228 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1257 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1212 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1203 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1268 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1153 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 1040 Views

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