Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM
I don't think there is a correct answer here, personally I think a Channeler is born with a set of OP abilities born into them ... Strength in the Power, Flow Affinity and whatever Talents may surface. This is no different to me than Brown eyes, or red hair or how tall a person may be... Those inborn traits make a person more likely to pursue certain professions, much like a very tall man might become a basketball player or a woman with a particularly strong Healing Talent (Nynaeve) ends up a Wisdom of her village. Certainly there are short men who pursue basketball and women who have the desire to Heal despite a weak Talent, but they face a much harder road to success and may end up side tracked (Egwene) by other more natural pursuits (Traveling or Cuendillar) or like Elayne (who also showed early interest in Healing) end up studying Ter'angreal. You'll note they both moved down paths of discovery only after they discovered particular strength in these areas.
I don't see predestination or "magic" here I see genetic markers that make an individual more likely to succeed at certain tasks. Nothing says they MUST become Yellow Ajah simply because they are strong a Healers ... Moiraine ignored it despite strong Talent and at least a little desire to Heal. Her non-Channeling aptitude proved stronger in her and thus she pursued the Blue way of life.
All of what you say bears merit, no question about it, I just don't see it as the type of ability that can so easily be trained in the way you describe. And it doesn't explain Talents like Foretelling, Dreaming or sensing ta'veren ... These all seem to be Talents you either possess or do not.
With that said, necessity is the mother of invention ... How one uses their gifts is a whole other question. Perhaps a woman who doesn't have the "traditional" Healing Talent discovered the Heal-all weave in the AoL and was able to pursue her dream... Androl is certainly making the most of his one strong ability and uses it in innovative ways.
I actually saw a very interesting study on identical twins and how even when they have wildly different (separated at birth) backgrounds still end up being remarkably similar ... Some crazy stats about how many of them end up in the same career or married to the same type of personalities etc ... Our genetics guide us much more than people like to believe.
I don't see predestination or "magic" here I see genetic markers that make an individual more likely to succeed at certain tasks. Nothing says they MUST become Yellow Ajah simply because they are strong a Healers ... Moiraine ignored it despite strong Talent and at least a little desire to Heal. Her non-Channeling aptitude proved stronger in her and thus she pursued the Blue way of life.
All of what you say bears merit, no question about it, I just don't see it as the type of ability that can so easily be trained in the way you describe. And it doesn't explain Talents like Foretelling, Dreaming or sensing ta'veren ... These all seem to be Talents you either possess or do not.
With that said, necessity is the mother of invention ... How one uses their gifts is a whole other question. Perhaps a woman who doesn't have the "traditional" Healing Talent discovered the Heal-all weave in the AoL and was able to pursue her dream... Androl is certainly making the most of his one strong ability and uses it in innovative ways.
I actually saw a very interesting study on identical twins and how even when they have wildly different (separated at birth) backgrounds still end up being remarkably similar ... Some crazy stats about how many of them end up in the same career or married to the same type of personalities etc ... Our genetics guide us much more than people like to believe.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 02/10/2012 at 11:39:23 PM
Problems with gateways
- 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM
3025 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM*
- 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM
719 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd...
- 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM
1224 Views
It's been discussed before...
- 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM
1588 Views
I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM
1234 Views
Re: I would agree with this
- 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM
1367 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well
- 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM
1356 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too)
- 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM
1247 Views
Regarding shadowspawn:
- 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM
1566 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else
- 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM
1070 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it
- 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM
1269 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM
1468 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM
1509 Views
Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM
1282 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this
- 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM
1433 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through
- 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM
1175 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say
- 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM
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I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength
- 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM
1307 Views
No I think they're more about strength
- 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM
1422 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
1298 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
1285 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM
1300 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this
- 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM
1251 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn
- 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM
1346 Views
She did Heal him
- 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM
1210 Views
Re-read some stuff
- 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM
1301 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM
1495 Views
But his thought processes are sound
- 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM
1196 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM
1270 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS
- 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM
1190 Views
Ummm...
- 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM
1177 Views
Re: Ummm...
- 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM
1305 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind
- 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM
1135 Views
I think he did
- 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM
1277 Views
She wouldn't have to guess!
- 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM
1179 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough
- 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM
1160 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY
- 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM
1188 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength
- 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM
1111 Views
Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM
1069 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM
1101 Views
Re: Exactly...
- 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM
1210 Views
AND...
- 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM
1079 Views
Re: AND...
- 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM
1249 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM
1184 Views
Re: AND...
- 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM
1234 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect
- 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM
1171 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it
- 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM
1259 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM
1427 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise
- 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM
1205 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen
- 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM
998 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times?
- 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM
1234 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct
- 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM
1214 Views
to the point on the Circle
- 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM
1238 Views
Circles don't add the Talents...
- 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM
1188 Views
I've been thinking about this
- 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM
1135 Views
Circles give added precision, remember?
- 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM
1164 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote
- 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM
1040 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit...
- 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM
1219 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand
- 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM
1135 Views
Highly doubtful...
- 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM
1174 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM
1137 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text.
- 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM
1174 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue
- 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM
1139 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous
- 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM
1190 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things
- 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM
1200 Views
the text is not inconsistent.
- 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM
1647 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that!
- 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM
1287 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level
- 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM
1190 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked.
- 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM
1227 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand.
- 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM
1053 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that
- 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM
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Re: to the point on the Circle
- 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM
1156 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body
- 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM
1187 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM*
- 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM
516 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent....
- 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM
1202 Views
There is so much evidence against this
- 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM
1270 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size.
- 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM
1288 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM
1126 Views
He's referring to skimming
- 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM
1311 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation
- 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM
1169 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent.
- 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM
1204 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1022 Views
Please explain Androl then
- 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM
1212 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that.
- 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM
1182 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1211 Views
- 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM
1211 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM
1022 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power.
- 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM
1213 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave
- 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM
1171 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within
- 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM
1353 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent?
- 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM
1127 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM*
- 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM
742 Views
I agree with this PoV
- 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM
1329 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM
1143 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally
- 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM
1261 Views
I disagree
- 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM
1159 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there
- 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM
1161 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem
- 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM
1122 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability...
- 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM
1336 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1616 Views
- 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM
1616 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM
1158 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider
- 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM
1122 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM
1278 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me
- 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM
1209 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM
1142 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue.
- 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM
1415 Views
Life skills and OP skills...
- 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM
1097 Views
Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM
1243 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM
1279 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM
1209 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time
- 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM
1335 Views
The point is the same regardless
- 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM
1234 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true
- 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM
1336 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow
- 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM
1244 Views
I know
- 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM
1277 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature
- 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM
1230 Views
- 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM
1230 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented.
- 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM
1217 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM
1232 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes...
- 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM
1264 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM
1278 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology?
- 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
1430 Views
